This will take you to the main site where there is history, technical information and other information on these cars.
This takes you back to the main page of the forums.
This is the control panel to change your password, information and preferences on this message board.
Click here if your lost your password or need to register on this message board. You must be a registered user to post. Registration is free.
Search this board for information you need.
Click here to buy cool Squarebirds mechandise.
Click here to support Squarebirds.org. For $20 annually receive 20mBytes webspace, a Squarebirds e-mail address and member's icon on the message board.
  #1  
Old 11-06-2010, 10:23 PM
spujia spujia is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 14 2009
Posts: 19
spujia is on a distinguished road
Default Starter on a rebuilt 430 runs slow

Greetings,

I just rebuilt the motor in my '60 bird, it's a 430. Other than a higher lift cam and the flat pistons, the motor is stock. The ONE part that I did not replace in the rebuild was the starter, as it looked good and worked pretty well before I rebuilt the motor. I did of course clean it on the outside and paint it.

After getting the motor rebuilt, I bought a new battery, 750 CC Amps; it was the highest amp battery they had, as my car was not listed.

Now, when I turn it over to start, the motor turns very slowly, stopping at times. I was barely able to get the motor running a couple of times.

My question is - is this normal, is higher compression of a stiff new motor the culprit, or should the starter be rebuilt/replaced? Is the battery too weak?

Cheers,
Steve
__________________
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-06-2010, 11:24 PM
jopizz's Avatar
jopizz jopizz is offline
Excellent Auto Mechanic for over 40 years.
 
Join Date: Nov 23 2009
Posts: 4,883
jopizz is on a distinguished road
Default

Did you try turning the motor over with out plugs in it first. I did that with mine to break it in before stressing the starter. It's not unusual for a newly rebuilt motor to turn over slow until it's broken in. Were you able to turn the crank by hand before you installed the motor. That would've given you some idea how easy or hard it would be on the starter.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-07-2010, 12:16 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,164
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jopizz View Post
...Were you able to turn the crank by hand before you installed the motor. That would've given you some idea how easy or hard it would be on the starter.
Exactly... An engine that is put together too tight really taxes a starter. Starter current is in direct relationship to the torque it must produce to spin.

If you told us you could turn the crank with a long wrench at the damper pulley, then I would say your electrical connections aren't tight. But, first things first. Try turning the crank by hand.

Where is your ground wire attached? Is it close to the starter? Also, make sure your car body is grounded with a separate wire coming off the battery (like modern cars have).

Let us know what you find. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-07-2010, 01:47 AM
spujia spujia is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 14 2009
Posts: 19
spujia is on a distinguished road
Default

Well, let's see..

Yes, I've taken the plugs out, and even put *a bit* of oil in each cylinder just for kicks and ran the starter with the plugs out for a while...

Yes, the motor seems to turn OK with a breaker bar on the crank. Stiff, but it moves.

The ground off of the battery is mounted to the top bolt on the bracket for the generator, which I believe also goes through the water pump. Could you suggest something better? I wasn't comfy with it myself...

Dave, could you clarify "Also, make sure your car body is grounded with a separate wire coming off the battery"?

For the starter, upon rebuild I noticed that the bolt for the cable to the starter came perilously close to the exhaust manifold. To make it work, I had to cut the bolt down, as well as cut the nut in half to get a clearance that I was comfortable with. I know from Dave's page that the body of the starter for the 430 bird was modified - my guess is this was the reason (perhaps the starter may be from a Lincoln?).
__________________
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-07-2010, 01:50 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,164
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

In 'electrical', we try to take all the resistance out of the path as possible. Ford tries to save money by cutting as many corners as possible. Consequently, your small copper ground wire was connected to the shortest practical point on your engine.

Both stranded copper conductors of sufficient diameter, should be connected as close to the starter motor as possible. Iron and steel have a higher resistance than copper, which isn't evident until you pump hundreds of amps through it.

I suggest using oversized wires with CRIMPED connections. #2 or #1-AWG (American Wire Gauge). I won't get into the 'solder' arguement, but I never solder. Neither do any car manufacturers. If your system is 6-volt (like '55 'birds), you need much larger wire.

For vibration areas, Welding Wire makes the ultimate conductor because it has hundreds of strands and is super flexible. 'Fixed' areas, like between your battery and starter solenoid can use regular #2 THHN wire from Home Depot or Lowe's.

It doesn't matter if the starter nut is cut down, but it must be tight. It can nearly touch the exhaust manifold as long as there is some air gap. Your starter lug is soft copper. All the parts stores sell rebuild kits for that lug because it bears the brunt of heavy, vibrating, wire.

When I route my starter wires, I use a spare block hole that's drilled and tapped (anywhere around the motor mounts). Then I strap the wires to the block before they get to the starter. That relieves the starter lug. I connect my ground wire to the bell housing, close to the starter motor.

The car body needs a solid ground. Squarebirds came with a braided strap at the firewall. After awhile that strap fails and current goes through your U-joints and bearings.

Modern cars have a small (#10), short, wire running from the battery's NEG post to the radiator support. You should do the same. Your headlights will love it.

Steve, with proper connections and good wire sizes, your starter will perform much stronger than it ever did. Right away, you will notice a big change. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-07-2010, 06:52 AM
Howard Prout's Avatar
Howard Prout Howard Prout is offline
Tinkerer
 
Join Date: Feb 11 2009
Posts: 435
Howard Prout is on a distinguished road
Default

I had similar problems with starter motors on my 430 until I found the "right" autoelectric shop. One of my starter motors have 6 volt coils in it, another one had the smaller coils for a 352 in it. The 430 starter motors have a higher torque than the 352s - hence the different part number. Also, as Dave says, a really good ground is essential. and yes, the stud is periously close to the exhaust manifold.
__________________
"Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-07-2010, 12:29 PM
partsetal's Avatar
partsetal partsetal is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jun 4 2005
Posts: 533
partsetal is on a distinguished road
Default

In addition to all the ground and power cables being in place, I would add that often on a restored motor, paint on the connections could inhibit the flow of current or the ground.
I recently did some research on the 430 starter, having been faced with a close fit of the stud and the manifold. What I found was that by checking all the part numbers of the two starters, 352 and 430, is that they are identical EXCEPT the drive housing. This housing is threaded for the starter bolts that hold the casing together and has the 3 holes to mount the assembly to the bell housing.
The drive housing on the 352 puts the stud near the 12 o'clock position where it interferes with the 430 manifold and pipe. The 430 drive housing puts the stud near the 1 o'clock position and provides ample clearance for the 430.
My presumption is that over the years these starters made one or more trips to a large rebuilder where they were disassembled, and the parts put in a big bin. With the slight variation in the position of the stud threads in the housing, it was difficult to get the correct one to add to the other rebuilt components (if anyone even knew there was a difference). Since the variation is so slight, it is not noticeable on the 352 (and perhaps the 390) and there were no complaints. With the limited number of 430's the installers made other provisions or searched for the correct ones.
Carl
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2010, 02:35 PM
tp tbird's Avatar
tp tbird tp tbird is offline
Experienced
 
Join Date: Dec 17 2007
Posts: 188
tp tbird is on a distinguished road
Default

I had the same problem with my old starter on a the rebuild engine .I got a rebuilt starter ,but the battery cable stud was in the wrong place (to close to manifold ) so I used the end plate from my old one that bolts to the bell housing to get the right clearance it seems to trun over fine now.Carl is right about the way the 430 starters are for the stud to mount the cable.Tom
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-08-2010, 10:05 AM
Howard Prout's Avatar
Howard Prout Howard Prout is offline
Tinkerer
 
Join Date: Feb 11 2009
Posts: 435
Howard Prout is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by partsetal View Post
I recently did some research on the 430 starter, having been faced with a close fit of the stud and the manifold. What I found was that by checking all the part numbers of the two starters, 352 and 430, is that they are identical EXCEPT the drive housing. This housing is threaded for the starter bolts that hold the casing together and has the 3 holes to mount the assembly to the bell housing.
The drive housing on the 352 puts the stud near the 12 o'clock position where it interferes with the 430 manifold and pipe. The 430 drive housing puts the stud near the 1 o'clock position and provides ample clearance for the 430.
Aha! So that is the difference. I was led down the garden path again! Oh well! Now I know. Thanks Carl.
__________________
"Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-08-2010, 01:21 PM
YellowRose's Avatar
YellowRose YellowRose is offline
Super-Experienced and a HELLOFA nice guy
 
Join Date: Jan 21 2008
Posts: 11,939
YellowRose is on a distinguished road
Default Starter on a rebuilt 430 runs slow

Hi Carl,

Do you happen to have the information on the starters as to which part number is for the 430 and which for the 352? That would be information that I am sure that our members would love to know. Especially since this thread was started regarding the problems encountered with working on a 430 model starter. I could also put it in the TRL. Thanks!
__________________

Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
'59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
"It's Hip To Be Square"
Thunderbird Registry #33025 VTCI #11178

rayclark07"at"att.net (Home) 210-674-5781 (Cell) 210-875-1411
http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:14 AM.

Driving, racing or working on cars can be hazardous. The procedures and advice on this website including the message board are opinion only. Squarebirds.org and its webmasters and contributors do not guarantee the correctness of the advice and procedures. The Squarebirds.org and its webmasters assume no liability for any damage, fines, punishment, injury or death resulting from following these procedures or advice. If you do not have the skills or tools to repair your car, please consult a professional. By using this site you agree to hold harmless the Squarebirds.org, its authors and its webmasters from any resulting claim and costs that may occur from using the information found on this site.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Any submissions to this site and any post on this site becomes property of Squarebirds.org . The webmasters reserve the right to edit and modify any submissions to this site. All material on this is site is copyrighted by the Squarebirds.org. Reproduction by any means other than for personal use is strictly prohibited. Permission to use material on this site can be obtained by contacting the webmasters. Copyright 2002-2016 by Squarebirds.org.