This will take you to the main site where there is history, technical information and other information on these cars.
This takes you back to the main page of the forums.
This is the control panel to change your password, information and preferences on this message board.
Click here if your lost your password or need to register on this message board. You must be a registered user to post. Registration is free.
Search this board for information you need.
Click here to buy cool Squarebirds mechandise.
Click here to support Squarebirds.org. For $20 annually receive 20mBytes webspace, a Squarebirds e-mail address and member's icon on the message board.
  #1  
Old 03-05-2010, 01:27 PM
JohnG's Avatar
JohnG JohnG is offline
John
 
Join Date: Jul 28 2003
Posts: 2,229
JohnG is on a distinguished road
Default New members with old motors - please read!!

There is an old saying: those who don't read history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes. This thread is along those lines....

(Discussion forums have many advantages but they also tend to bury valuable information as time passes. Thus we sometimes end up reinventing the wheel. )

If you have a TBird with a motor of unknown age, the suggestion here is to get the oil pan off and clean the pickup screen. It might save you a blown motor!

In the case of both Alexander and I, at different times, our pickup screens were totally clogged with ancient oil deposits. This is easily seen :


In his case, while idling, he snapped a connecting rod and ruined his motor. This is discussed at

http://www.lincolnsofdistinction.net...ighlight=golde

while in my case, in 2004, I benefitted from his experience and cleaned mine (shown in the photo above) before doing any damage. (see thread at http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...=pickup+screen)

If you are interested, we can discuss getting the oil pan off. Removing the screen is easy; all kinds of things will remove the deposits. Others will argue that a new oil pump is a good idea at that point. Your choice. Bottom line: there is only one way to know for certain: check!

Now you might well get the pan off, peek up at the screen and it's clean as a whistle. You might then curse me for leading you down this path of a couple hours of work that lead nowhere. Except for one thing: now you know.

From a different person's experience, do not think you can take care of this with modern detergent oils. This person had a Chevy motor built around 1960. Lots of oil deposits like in my screen. Cleaned most of them but then filled it with modern oil. 600 miles or so later his main and rod bearings were worn out as all kinds of stuff had gotten loose and ground the hell out of the soft bearings.

In any case, here is a photo of the same screen, but cleaned:



happy motoring!

John

Last edited by JohnG : 03-06-2010 at 01:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-05-2010, 05:36 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,159
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

What a great post, John. I agree with your warning, to the letter.

Most folks don't know that the oil filtration happens AFTER the oil pump. The filter has a bypass valve, so most of the oil doesn't get filtered (especially when the oil is cold).

After seeing pictures of the pickup, you can only imagine what the botom of the pan looks like. An oil filter can only pass a fraction of the demand, so most of the ground up sediment that gets through, settles in bearings, lifters, rocker arm shafts, etc. I have been amazed that some engines still ran after seeing all the caked-on dirt.

Here is an example of a Y-Block timing set. The only oil this chain saw was from blowby gas mist. I scraped the gear to find the timing marks. The rest of the entire area was baked-on flakes. If detergent oil were introduced, these flakes would certainly do what you described. - Dave

__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca

Last edited by simplyconnected : 10-19-2013 at 04:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-05-2010, 06:49 PM
Dan Leavens's Avatar
Dan Leavens Dan Leavens is offline
Moderator / Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 4 2006
Posts: 4,578
Dan Leavens is on a distinguished road
Cool

John, I too agree with Dave excellent thread and one that all should print and keep in their technical file. Thanks for taking the time to start it up.
__________________
Dano Calgary,Alberta Canada
Thunderbird Registry
58HT #33317
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-05-2010, 09:48 PM
byersmtrco's Avatar
byersmtrco byersmtrco is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 28 2004
Posts: 1,611
byersmtrco is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up

Oil P/U screens (and Tmg/Chain areas) that look like that are just due to lack of maint. The 390 that came out of my car was originally installed around 1971. The p/u screen & pan are on my new eng. I saw it right after it came out. They were surprisingly clean. The P/U Scrn was a little dirty, but no where near clogged. But there was NO sludge in the motor.
When this was an every day car, my dad logged 10-15K a year on it (30+yrs).He changed the oil every 3-5K mi (or 3 times a year). I change it once or twice a yr, but I only put about 2K mi per yr on.

Those are really excellent points you guys made. If you don't know the history, drop that pan & have a look see. And I guar it'll need a timing chain. FE's are notorious for sloppy chains (not gears wearing out).
This throws off timing and if let go long enough will fail.
__________________
John Byers
1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
Pic of car with my son Justin (15 Y/O 6'1")
Poss 3rd Gen T/B owner
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-05-2010, 10:42 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,159
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
...If you are interested, we can discuss getting the oil pan off. Removing the screen is easy; all kinds of things will remove the deposits. Others will argue that a new oil pump is a good idea at that point...
If you have the oil pan off and servicing the pickup, it only makes sense to unscrew the bottom of the oil pump and check the rotors. My 351 sucked-up something nasty through the pickup screen. This piece was HARD, and imbeded itself into the oil pump rotor. I wish I had pictures to show, but I don't. And why it didn't snap the distributor driveshaft, I'll never know.

Another good reason to check the oil pump is if your pressure isn't what it used to be. A clogged screen will do that, but so will worn out oil pump gears or rotors.

John G's advice is cheap insurance. John Byers raises another good point: Back in Squarebird days, we didn't have True Roller Chains. Spend a weekend and drop the pan, clean the pickup, check your oil pump rotors. If you feel ambitious, pull your timing cover and change the timing chain at the same time. There's no danger of dropping 'someting' down the oil pan, because it will be off. A True Roller Chain set won't stretch as much and will last many times longer than the old set. Any hesitation your engine had, will be GONE with a new timing set.

Roller chains look much like bicycle chains with pins and rollers:


These don't cost much more, but are way better than OEM chains. Notice, the double-row. Major manufacturers make them (yes, for Squarebird engines, like THESE). This set replaced that nasty thing in the previous picture, on my Y-Block.

BTW, a real sloppy chain can cause major engine damage. If the chain 'jumps' a few teeth, pistons try to close valves. It's ugly (and expensive). - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca

Last edited by simplyconnected : 10-19-2013 at 05:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-05-2010, 10:53 PM
JohnG's Avatar
JohnG JohnG is offline
John
 
Join Date: Jul 28 2003
Posts: 2,229
JohnG is on a distinguished road
Default

John Beyers, do you know why FEs are tough on chains??

When I had the pan off in 2004 for the oil screen cleanup, I did indeed change the chain and gears. Not knowing Dave then, I put Brand X gears and chain on. About a year or so later, and about 3000 miles, I hauled the motor out and rebuilt it. I was surprised to find the chain looked like hell in terms of stretch. I may take a look at it again this Spring, given what I have learned from Dave.

Dave may be wondering if they get enough oil...

Since we are on oil, I will make a pitch to people that an oil pressure gauge is a good idea. Personally I like the electric sending unit ones - no line to spring a leak. Make up a hardware store base T fitting, run some wiring, put it under the dash and you quickly find out alot. New pump?? Cheap insurance, easy to get.

Last edited by JohnG : 03-05-2010 at 10:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:21 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,159
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
...Dave may be wondering if they get enough oil...
Gentlemen, as bad as the FE was, it was the (new and improved) next generation after the Y-Block.

Please read this. <--click here for the solution to remedy poor timing chain oiling. You can start just after Picture #6. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca

Last edited by simplyconnected : 10-19-2013 at 04:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:38 PM.

Driving, racing or working on cars can be hazardous. The procedures and advice on this website including the message board are opinion only. Squarebirds.org and its webmasters and contributors do not guarantee the correctness of the advice and procedures. The Squarebirds.org and its webmasters assume no liability for any damage, fines, punishment, injury or death resulting from following these procedures or advice. If you do not have the skills or tools to repair your car, please consult a professional. By using this site you agree to hold harmless the Squarebirds.org, its authors and its webmasters from any resulting claim and costs that may occur from using the information found on this site.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Any submissions to this site and any post on this site becomes property of Squarebirds.org . The webmasters reserve the right to edit and modify any submissions to this site. All material on this is site is copyrighted by the Squarebirds.org. Reproduction by any means other than for personal use is strictly prohibited. Permission to use material on this site can be obtained by contacting the webmasters. Copyright 2002-2016 by Squarebirds.org.