This will take you to the main site where there is history, technical information and other information on these cars.
This takes you back to the main page of the forums.
This is the control panel to change your password, information and preferences on this message board.
Click here if your lost your password or need to register on this message board. You must be a registered user to post. Registration is free.
Search this board for information you need.
Click here to buy cool Squarebirds mechandise.
Click here to support Squarebirds.org. For $20 annually receive 20mBytes webspace, a Squarebirds e-mail address and member's icon on the message board.
  #1  
Old 06-28-2013, 02:08 PM
halloran halloran is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 28 2013
Posts: 8
halloran is on a distinguished road
Default Vein style power steering question

I am currently rebuilding a 1960 Lincoln Premiere with a 430 MEL V8 motor. I am aware that there were two styles of power steering units...a vein style and a crank driven style. The crank style is much better but mine is a vein style. I have the engine all hooked up on a test stand and want to fire the motor without grenading the power steering pump. I've been told that the vein style units can burn up in as little as 5 seconds if they aren't getting any fluid. So my question is whether or not I can hook up the high pressure hose and just return it to the filler canister so the fluid will keep cycling while the engine is running. I have the power steering gear box I can connect up if need be but I'm not sure what good that would do. I would really rather not have to pull the crank pulley and disconnect the pump entirely if I don't have to. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much!

P.S. This is my first post on the forums
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-28-2013, 04:33 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,075
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Welcome to Squarebirds, Nick. In a nutshell, yes you can run the two ports together, that should keep the pump 'wet'. Doing it that way will also keep the mechanical drag down on the pulley because you are not producing any pressure. It also helps keep the system clean internally because you won't have open ports (to atmosphere) on the pump. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-28-2013, 06:08 PM
KULTULZ
 
Posts: n/a
Question

This being a LINC belt driven pump, wouldn't it just be easier to remove the PS drive belt? The WP will still be driven as the GEN drive belts are driven off the CS also?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-28-2013, 07:28 PM
halloran halloran is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 28 2013
Posts: 8
halloran is on a distinguished road
Default Now for the intake...

Thanks for the information Dave! I will give it a shot and hopefully she starts sucking up fluid. In response to the other reply the power steering pumps are both technically on the crank but operate differently. Here is a schematic http://www.lincolnlandinc.com/images...4_large.jpg?08

Now I just have to figure out why my **** intake manifold gaskets keep leaking lol. I've gone through 2 fel pro gasket sets and completely wire brushed the cylinder heads and even took the intake to a machine shop to have them check how flat the ports were and they are all square without any warping. Not sure if anyone else has leaky issues with their 430 intake manifold ports but port 8 seems to be the culprit. It leaks every time without even running the engine. I am going to try and use some rtv to help resolve the issue and maybe find a thicker gasket. On another note the engine will not build oil pressure with the coil disconnected. Oil is getting to the lifters but none to the heads or to the oil filter. I've been also told that these 430s have to be fired to produce enough vacuum in order to build oil pressure. Not sure how accurate that statement is but I'm going to try the drill on the oil pump method to see what happens...if still no oil in the heads then either I got some bad head gaskets or plugs where they should/shouldn't be or the cam bearings are installed wrong. This has been a 3 year project and nothing but head scratchers and headaches lol.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-28-2013, 08:47 PM
KULTULZ
 
Posts: n/a
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by halloran View Post

In response to the other reply the power steering pumps are both technically on the crank but operate differently.

Here is a schematic http://www.lincolnlandinc.com/images...4_large.jpg?08


Quote:
Originally Posted by halloran View Post

I am currently rebuilding a 1960 Lincoln Premiere with a 430 MEL V8 motor.

I am aware that there were two styles of power steering units...a vein style and a crank driven style. The crank style is much better but mine is a vein style.
The two styles (LM) were crank driven and belt driven.

Both examples shown in the ILL are crank driven The vane style was only used in 1958. The roller type replaced it.

Quote:
Now I just have to figure out why my **** intake manifold gaskets keep leaking lol. I've gone through 2 fel pro gasket sets and completely wire brushed the cylinder heads and even took the intake to a machine shop to have them check how flat the ports were and they are all square without any warping.

Not sure if anyone else has leaky issues with their 430 intake manifold ports but port 8 seems to be the culprit. It leaks every time without even running the engine. I am going to try and use some rtv to help resolve the issue and maybe find a thicker gasket.
There is a MEL TSB describing leakages past the head bolt(s) and how to correct it.

Quote:
On another note the engine will not build oil pressure with the coil disconnected. Oil is getting to the lifters but none to the heads or to the oil filter.

I've been also told that these 430s have to be fired to produce enough vacuum in order to build oil pressure. Not sure how accurate that statement is but I'm going to try the drill on the oil pump method to see what happens...if still no oil in the heads then either I got some bad head gaskets or plugs where they should/shouldn't be or the cam bearings are installed wrong.

This has been a 3 year project and nothing but head scratchers and headaches lol.
Again...

It may be that enough engine RPM is being generated to build the oil pressure sufficiently. Do you have a quality mechanical pressure gauge hooked up? Has the rocker arm assemblies been gone through? Are you trying to prime the engine by spinning it with the starter motor?

The MEL engine lubricating system is basically the same as an FE. The rocker arm assemblies are fed through the lifter galleries.

If no oil to the filter, the pressure relief valve in the pump may be stuck.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-28-2013, 09:46 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,075
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Oil is picked up by the pump, then sent to the filter.
Pressure IS resistance to flow.
If your pump rotors are worn or your bearings are loose, there goes your resistance (and your pressure). If everything is tight and the engine produces too much pressure, the pressure relief valve opens, dumping excess flow to the pan but maintaining correct pressure.

Oil filters also have a bypass valve. If the filter is clogged or the oil is too thick to make it through the paper filter element, the remainder bypasses the filter and goes on to the engine parts without being filtered.

So, from the pan to the pump to the filter then on to the oil galleries. Everything else (lifters, crank & cam bearings, rocker shafts and timing set gets oil from the galleries.

Pull the distributor and use your drill motor in reverse to drive the oil pump drive shaft. If your rockers are getting oil so is everything else. Liquid pressure gauges are very reasonable in cost. I suggest you keep one on your engine block at all times. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:36 PM
halloran halloran is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 28 2013
Posts: 8
halloran is on a distinguished road
Default

My car is an original 1960, unmolested. If in fact the roller type pump replaced the vane style pump post 1958 then Ford must've just cut some corners and popped an older style vane pump in there. In any case the intake leak isn't coming from the head bolts it's coming from the bottom lip of the intake manifold between the intake port and the head. I am running 15-40 Rotella as I was told it's one of the best oils to use because of it's zinc and phosphorous content. It seems like the engine is being lubricated (cam, lifters, crank) but the oil just isn't making it to the rocker arm shafts. Both heads are bone dry of oil. I tried priming the oil pump by filling it 3/4 with oil but it still doesn't seem to be filling or circulating oil through the filter. Here is a picture of when I plasti-gauged the engine.
CLICK HERE FOR PICTURE

We are turning the engine from the starter on the engine test stand. We just leave coil power off and turn the motor from the starter which doesn't start it but just turns it over and over etc. I never went through the rocker arms as again they were original and functional before I started tearing down the engine. I replaced the rocker shaft springs and retaining pins but otherwise the rest of the assembly is original. How do I check the pressure relief valve in the oil pump? The pan is off and I can access it pretty easily. The test stand has a transparent line the size of a shoe string with a brass fitting that connects to the top of the oil filter housing (which is where the oil pressure sensor connects from the instrument cluster). This line goes to the oil pressure gauge on the panel and you would be able to tell if oil is getting to the line because you would be able to see it. The clearance on the crank bearings are .002"...

P.S. Sorry for the super mega large picture but I wanted you to be able to read the plasti-gauge :P

Last edited by simplyconnected : 06-28-2013 at 11:43 PM. Reason: Max picture size allowable is 800x600 dpi.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-29-2013, 12:25 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,075
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Nick, .002" is great. Race engines open up to .003, so you're good. I also use Rotella-T 15W-40 for the same flat tappet (ZDDP) reasons (my Y-block has solid lifters).

Oil gets to your heads through #2 cam bearing for the LH head and #4 cam bearing for the RH head. There is a path offset at the block deck/head parting line where oil hole 'jogs' before the oil goes up to the rocker shaft stanchion. In Y-blocks, the cam chokes oil when the groove around the bearing wears and closes off the flow. FE's and MEL's are different. Ford actually put a groove UNDERNEATH both cam bearings so that cannot happen.

The 'jog' at the head could be clogged. More likely, your rocker shafts are plugged with dirt. To remedy this, pull the end plugs off your rocker shafts and send a rod down to thoroughly clean the middle out. I always do this to every engine I overhaul because it is necessary. Your original rocker shafts have a notch that points toward the lower RH side when installed correctly.

I also restrict the oil flow at the stanchion bolt and I use a high volume oil pump. The restriction and high volume raises oil pressure at idle speeds. Rocker arms and valve stems don't need a lot of flow. As long as they are wet, that's all you need. Real old engines had exposed rockers with no oil or they used a drip cup.

It bothers me that you say, oil is not flowing through the filter. An oil line coming off the filter usually operates a mechanical gauge inside the car. If you want to add your own gauge you can use any of the gallery plugs along the LH side of your block OR put a tee on that oil filter fitting.

Never assume your engine oil is flowing until you are SURE. Get the gauge to prevent ruining a good engine. Without cranking the engine use the oil pump driveshaft procedure with your drill motor. Oil WILL flow if you didn't leave an oil plug out. Take a picture of the oil readings.

This engine overhaul should last many years if done right. If not, it won't last a day. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-29-2013, 02:48 AM
KULTULZ
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by halloran View Post

My car is an original 1960, unmolested.
You have the complete service history of the car?

Quote:
If in fact the roller type pump replaced the vane style pump post 1958 then Ford must've just cut some corners and popped an older style vane pump in there.
That had to happen in it's service history, not assembly.

Quote:
In any case the intake leak isn't coming from the head bolts it's coming from the bottom lip of the intake manifold between the intake port and the head.
No way it could be from an internal leak? At least you have flow to that point.

If you are sure that it isn't an internal leak, I will not post the TSB.

Quote:
We are turning the engine from the starter on the engine test stand. We just leave coil power off and turn the motor from the starter which doesn't start it but just turns it over and over etc.
Has this engine been recently reassembled/overhauled? Did you put assembly lube on the cam/tappets? It is gone now.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-29-2013, 11:18 AM
halloran halloran is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 28 2013
Posts: 8
halloran is on a distinguished road
Default

Well I got the car from the original owner. A very old man who never did anything to maintain the vehicle as he was too old to crawl under anything let alone turn wrenches. Is it possible the pump had been replaced early in it's life?...sure...is it probable?... I don't think so. The ball joints and suspension were shot and just about every paper/cork gasket in the car had some sort of leak. I am positive to the location of the intake leak. I have checked up and down for hairline cracks and pitting but both surfaces (head side and intake side) are as smooth as glass. All we know is that coolant is making it from the radiator and filling the intake and heads. We have completely rebuilt the motor so YES it has been overhauled. We did put cam assembly lube on the cam and distributor etc. But like I said, it appears that oil is making it to the cam when we crank the engine which will keep it lubricated but it just won't make it to the heads.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:22 AM.

Driving, racing or working on cars can be hazardous. The procedures and advice on this website including the message board are opinion only. Squarebirds.org and its webmasters and contributors do not guarantee the correctness of the advice and procedures. The Squarebirds.org and its webmasters assume no liability for any damage, fines, punishment, injury or death resulting from following these procedures or advice. If you do not have the skills or tools to repair your car, please consult a professional. By using this site you agree to hold harmless the Squarebirds.org, its authors and its webmasters from any resulting claim and costs that may occur from using the information found on this site.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Any submissions to this site and any post on this site becomes property of Squarebirds.org . The webmasters reserve the right to edit and modify any submissions to this site. All material on this is site is copyrighted by the Squarebirds.org. Reproduction by any means other than for personal use is strictly prohibited. Permission to use material on this site can be obtained by contacting the webmasters. Copyright 2002-2016 by Squarebirds.org.