Tight camshaft bolt

[mh434]

Hi all
Picked up a new cam last week, when I went to screw the old sprocket bolt in (so I didn't lose it !) it felt very tight, sort of two turns and then felt like you wouldn't want to go much further as it would strip the threads. Bare in mind that I was holding the cam in my hand so I couldn't put the bolt in with a huge amount of torque. I cant believe that ford would have changed the thread between the early 352 and later 390. Anyone else have a similar issue ? One possible cause I have just thought of is that the thread in the cam may be gummed up with the thick grease that they coat the cam in to protect it while its on the shelf. A squirt with degreaser and an air line may help.
Any thoughts ?

Jon

[simplyconnected]

What year engine is the new cam made for? Ford made huge changes over the years so be a lot more specific in your description.

The Shop Manual offers a procedure for installing the cam. There should be a lash tolerance as well. I'm not aware of more than one cam bolt over the years. BUT... did you change from a 'button' to a thrust plate|? What timing set did you buy? Did you use the spacer?

Understand that this is a guessing game without specifics. There is nothing wrong with retrofitting a more modern cam, like a roller into an early block but the right parts must be used. - Dave

[mh434]

Hi Dave
Its a 1960 352 that originally had the thrust button cam.
The new cam is a comp cams 33-224-3
New timing gear is Cloyes C-3029-X with the spacer cast into the gear.
I have a camshaft thrust plate ready to drill and tap the block. The thrust plate fixings are proving difficult to find over here.
Would be nice to walk into a Summit or Jeggs store to pick up bits but we have to be a bit more patient when it comes to ordering bits.

Jon

[pbf777]

The two original O.E.M. thrust-plate retaining fasteners (sorry, not available at Summit or Jegs) were of 7/16" x 14 thread approx. 5/8" in length w/ lock washer, w/ modified Fillister style w/ Phillips drive head. Note that adequate tread engagement may not be available for the original fastener due to the inside diameter counter-sunk relief machined into the face of the block at the galleries to accept the welch plugs.

Also note, if using a non OEM fastener, pay particular attention for sufficient clearance to timing chain gear! A reduced 12-point fastener head, presenting a somewhat smaller outside diameter (as compared to say a 6-point hex)may be shortened (some), and/or the timing gear can be chucked in a lathe, and a relief/clearance cut made to provide adequate clearance on the offending surface.

Also be attentive to the oil gallery passage to the distributor gear & pilot shaft as this may limit the acceptable under-head fastener length.

As far as the camshaft to gear retaining bolt, always establish the proper fastener thread pitch of the new aftermarket unit, as it is not unusual for these manufactures to adopt non O.E.M. dimensions.

Scott.

[StealthSRT10]

Comp cams doesnt make a cam for the pre 1965 block with the buttom. I know because i had to get a later engine. I would suggest you look it up for yourself but thats why i didnt rebuild my 1959 352 the only cam grind is oem.

[mh434]

I realise that you can’t get the original style cam that’s why I’ve got a cam for a later engine and modifying the block to take a thrust plate. Seems to be a common mod.

[simplyconnected]

Maybe these posts by our founder, Alexander, from over 15 years ago will help:

In 1963, the cam retention system was changed from a simple thrust button to a thrust plate. The two systems do not interchange. The timing gears are different for these two systems. There also appears to have been two different spacings of the dowels for the camshafts using the thrust button. They also do not interchange.

The pre-1963 engines can be tapped to allow them to use the thrust plate.

Pre-1963 performance cams are virtually non-existent now.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

It would be difficult to find a performance camshaft for the pre-1963 thrust button camshaft retention system. They are available for about $150 from many Thunderbird part suppliers. I warn you to get the timing gear as a set with the camshaft, since there are apparently two different spacings of the interlock peg. I bought a new camshaft to replace the used one on the rebuilt engine I had, but the camshaft would not fit the new timing gear that was on the engine. Frustration.

The engine can be machined for the post-1963 thrust plate system. This system uses a camshaft with a different face than the thrust button type of camshafts. The timing gears are also different.

If you go for the thrust plate system, a wealth of camshaft options are available to you, including the ones from Carroll Shelby. They also have a large amount of FE parts that fit our engine that are hard to get otherwise. I bought a damper spacer and block to head dowels from them. These are new parts that are next to impossible to get elsewhere. http://www.carrollshelbyent.com/engine_order_form.cfm .

Steve Christ's book on rebuilding FE engines is an excellent reference for doing any work on these engines. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...48742?v=glance

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

The prices have changed but just about all this information still stands. Newer products have come about. I use a 'true roller' timing set with the newer cams (including hydraulic roller cams). They last 3X longer and are inexpensive. Here's a set for $46. from Summit.

EDIT: I looked up part numbers for you. These are for 1964 and later FE engines:
Cam Bolt - 371643-S (7/16"-14 X 1-1/8") also use a lock washer and I use Loctite blue.
Thrust Plate - C3AZ-6269-A
Thrust Plate Screws - 380041-S (7/16"-14 x 5/8") also use lock washers and Loctite blue.
If you can't find original Phillips-head screws, I substitute button head cap screws because a hex head will scrape the back side of the cam sprocket. Don't forget Loctite.

As always, when assembling your cam and all the parts, rotate it. Check for end-thrust and bearing 'feel'. Then, install the chain. - Dave

[mh434]

Dave

If I'd thought about it sooner I would have taken some side by side photos of the original & new camshaft and timing gear. Without the assistance of people like yourself on this site I would have been completely stumped when it came to the camshaft portion of the engine rebuild. I'm just waiting for a pair of NOS thrust plate screws to arrive from the states (there's an invoice I don't want to leave laying around at home..!!) and then the short block assembly can begin. I may have got ahead of myself slightly by buying a tin of engine enamel in anticipation....and yes, its going to be blue not black. The purists wont like it but when its your hard earned cash going into it you do what you want not what somebody else expects.
I mentioned the tight bolt when I dropped the camshaft off yesterday. The engineer didn't seem that bothered, seen it many times before where the thread is gummed up with the coating applied at the factory. The will chase and clean the thread.

[simplyconnected]

Ok, I looked at the parts you bought. The cam is good and I'm sure you will love it. The timing set is suspicious. That timing set is not for an FE. It is for a truck engine (F-500). I think you should send it back and order the one I suggested. If you have problems, I can ship it to you.

A flood of questions and issues popped in my head about your build. Will you be doing the assembly? Do you have tools to do this? Are you disassembling your rocker shafts for cleaning? What are you doing for lifters? Are you installing new valve springs? Are you doing oil modifications? Do you have a degree wheel? Are you buying new pistons, rings, bearings, gasket set, etc? What compression ratio are you looking for?

Can you weight-match your pistons?
Can you weight-match both ends of your connecting rods?
Can you weight-match the pistons AND rods as an assembly?
(This is the order in which it should be done.) None of this work takes extra money but it does take time. It's best to do it yourself rather than to pay for someone else's time.

After the piston/rod/rings/bearings are bolted together, Do you have a place that can dynamically balance your crankshaft? I do mine WITH the flex plate and damper pulley ON the crankshaft.

Why all the detail? Because the machine shop needs to change the geometry of your casting by shaving the surfaces flat AND your new pistons will be larger and probably heavier. That's why the balance guy needs an example of your piston assemblies with all the parts attached. - Dave

[mh434]

Dave
Just a quick reply on the timing gear set. Summit have them listed incorrectly for a truck engine. I checked on the Cloyes website and it confirms the 3029 is for an FE.
I’ll respond to your other points later.

Jon

[pbf777]

Dave
Summit have them listed incorrectly for a truck engine. I checked on the Cloyes website and it confirms the 3029 is for an FE.
Jon

Please do not use Summit or any other mail-order processing outlet as a tech reference, as they notoriously provide inaccurate information, which may prove hazardous to your project and your wallet!

Scott.

[pbf777]

Ok,

Can you weight-match the pistons AND rods as an assembly? Dave

I understand the first two, but I'm not familiar with this procedure, please explain the intent and process?

After the piston/rod/rings/bearings are bolted together, Do you have a place that can dynamically balance your crankshaft? Dave

Yes, one should have the crankshaft dynamically balanced, but what effect does bolting the reciprocating/revolving components together first have?

I do mine WITH the flex plate and damper pulley ON the crankshaft. - Dave

This would be the correct process, particularly for those assemblies with an intended external imbalance value imparted by such components, such as the Ford "small-blocks". But, for those units such as the Ford FE 352 & 390's which do not carry these counter weight influences, I would prefer to "spin" the crankshaft less these units, acquire the proper balance value, and then add them to the assembly in the balancing process, and establish that they are as intended,....... "neutral", correcting if necessary so as to impart no imbalance value.

Please note, that the above inquiries on my part are do to the many different processes that may be developed by individuals in order to quire the same outcome of others (aka, " there's more than one way to skin-a-cat"), and I'm always interested the procedures adopted by others and explore their validity.

Scott.

[newyear]

How to build max-performance Ford FE engines

I have this book and will scan the rest of the pages if it is of any value to the thread
Peter

https://www.cartechbooks.com/

[mh434]

Please do not use Summit or any other mail-order processing outlet as a tech reference, as they notoriously provide inaccurate information, which may prove hazardous to your project and your wallet!

Scott.

Good advice Scott.
Summit and others are good as “what’s available” websites, but I then always cross check the manufacturer website for fit and purpose.

[simplyconnected]

Please do not use Summit or any other mail-order processing outlet as a tech reference, as they notoriously provide inaccurate information, which may prove hazardous to your project and your wallet!

Scott.

Scott, I hate to say this but most ALL of our vendors are mail order and they are quite reputable. Can a mistake be made? Always, but their speed in fixing the problem separates the men from the boys. Summit is one of the largest speed shops in the USA with retail stores in Ohio, Georgia, Nevada and Texas. They sell high-end products, host professional car shows and races around the country and they have a staff of phone techs that will contact their suppliers and OEMs for you if they don't have answers. I have used them for very large and small orders with great satisfaction.

Our T-Bird houses are also very good for new and used parts to keep our Squarebirds on the road and looking beautiful. I do not hesitate to purchase from well-established online retailers.

1. I understand the first two, but I'm not familiar with this procedure, please explain the intent and process?

2. Yes, one should have the crankshaft dynamically balanced, but what effect does bolting the reciprocating/revolving components together first have?

3. This would be the correct process, particularly for those assemblies with an intended external imbalance value imparted by such components, such as the Ford "small-blocks". But, for those units such as the Ford FE 352 & 390's which do not carry these counter weight influences, I would prefer to "spin" the crankshaft less these units, acquire the proper balance value, and then add them to the assembly in the balancing process, and establish that they are as intended,....... "neutral", correcting if necessary so as to impart no imbalance value...

Scott, I will explain these but I thought you are an engine builder.

1. After weighing pistons, there are always differences between pistons, albeit small.
After weighing both ends of connecting rods, there are always differences between con rods, albeit small.
When they are assembled with the wrist pins and keepers again, the weight tolerance stack may show a mismatch between piston assemblies. The goal is to make them all weigh the SAME.

I won't explain HOW TO weight-match because you can look it up on the Intenet. Pre-weight matched pistons rarely are in reality. I've also measured pre-fit rings to be too tight in the bore. A tight ring will either score cylinder walls or break. Measure all rings IN their bores, at least 2" deep.

2. When a V8 crankshaft is balanced, all mass must be taken into consideration. Some of it is rotary and the rest is linear because the piston slides in and out of a bore while the crank end rotates. A complete piston assembly called a 'sample' must be submitted with the crankshaft for balancing. We bolt the caps to the rods to keep the bearings in place. We install wrist pin keepers to hold the piston (with rings) and rod together to make a sample piston with all its parts.

Aftermarket pistons rarely ever weigh the same as the originals they replace because of alloy mass and size differences. Consequently, the original crankshaft balance is off, like when new tires replace old ones, they need to be re-balanced.

The "sample piston" must be consistent with ALL pistons in that engine. The guy doing the balance will also add a couple grams for oil riding in the oil ring. We're trying to establish the amount of bob-weights, bolted to the crank. Then, spinning the crank will show two values, the amount of imbalance and where, from the post end of the crank to the flange end. How? Using LVDT's and angle position encoders on each end of the spinning crankshaft cradle.

Production engines come out good but rarely great. A hand-built engine should always be far smoother than stock.

3. Whether a crankshaft is internally or externally balanced, the fact remains that the flex plate and damper pulley ALL rotate together. Consequently, I balance them together for a result that is near perfect which is why my engines run so smooth. In stock engines, the damper pulley and flex plates are separately balanced so again, there is a tolerance stack. Dynamically balancing these rotating parts as an assembly eliminates the stack.

Scott, if these techniques are different from yours and clearly they are different or you would understand them. I'd love to hear how YOU do it.

Dave
Just a quick reply on the timing gear set. Summit have them listed incorrectly for a truck engine. I checked on the Cloyes website and it confirms the 3029 is for an FE.
I’ll respond to your other points later.

Jon

Summit may have a mistake in their listing but I KNOW the gear set I recommended is correct for your application, has equal quality and is cheaper. I am using this gear set right now in a 390. But hey, it's your money and your engine. Looks like you know what you're doing. Good Luck. - Dave