390 Rebuild

[stubbie]

Anyone know of a engine rebuilder of FE's of any note in Las Vegas area? Trying to help someone out here.

[Yadkin]

Since the FE was used for so many years in so many applications, I'm sure most shops are familiar with them.

[simplyconnected]

I respectfully and strongly disagree. Stubbie, you're right to search for an EXPERIENCED FE engine builder.

A builder who knows Chevy or other engines will get you (and himself) in trouble. Ford FE engines are different in many ways. They can be properly rebuilt but if you are looking for 'first time success' find an experienced FE engine builder. We have heard stories about inexperienced FE builders who threw their hands up and quit before a successful build, mainly because they don't understand the oiling system.

Yadkin also had his engine overhauled but went through several sets of very expensive hydraulic roller lifters, each set a different brand; clearly because his oil passages were not properly cleared and washed, clean. This resulted in multiple seized lifter plungers and bent pushrods, some of which showed up hundreds of miles after the build.

These old engines haven't been built for many decades. Finding an experienced FE (and Y-Block) builder is getting harder each year as experienced mechanics retire. Keep looking until you find 'experience', not a guy who 'says he can do it.' - Dave

[stubbie]

Thanks Dave. Trying to help someone out with a rebuild after an already shoddy job just went south.

[simplyconnected]

How bad are the damages?

I grant you that this isn't rocket science and none of the guys on the assembly line have a PhD. What they have is experience and lots of it. Consequently, Dearborn Engine pumped out 1,100 cold and hot tested, qualified, FE engines per day.

Now 55 yrs later, the old retired guys forgot more than the new mechanics ever learned. Now with new mechanics, comes a new learning curve.

Most mechanics over here start with GM (Chevy) engines because we have so many. The tide is turning toward Japanese car mechanics, especially on both coasts. Again, because we have so many. Where does that put the new FE builder? You can guess.

Not surprising that someone botched an FE build. Now we need to know the damages so we can move forward. - Dave

[Yadkin]

Yadkin also had his engine overhauled but went through several sets of very expensive hydraulic roller lifters, each set a different brand; clearly because his oil passages were not properly cleared and washed, clean. This resulted in multiple seized lifter plungers and bent pushrods, some of which showed up hundreds of miles after the build.

Nope. Never bent a pushrod or seized a plunger. Never found any debris in the galleries. Changed out the cam and problem solved.

The only mistake the builder made was not an aggressive enough cross-hatch on the cylinders, which cause the rings not to seat properly.

[simplyconnected]

Steve, this isn't about who is right. It's about helping others, even if learning is from our mistakes. Less than a year ago, your builder recommended 15W-50 oil in a new engine when your cam company recommended no higher than 10W-30 (which is what Ford uses):

I went with Kevin's recommendation to use Joe Gibbs BR1, which is a 15W-50 break in oil from the start. After a few hundred miles I switched to Joe Gibbs HR1, also a 15W-50 oil. ...

Roller cams do not destroy lifters, especially not different lifters. You're on your fourth set of very expensive roller lifters. Remember, these are some of your posts:

It turned out to be a bad lifter, #1 exhaust. Now I have the simple task of removing the intake manifold, heavy and glued on. I think I'll design a lever and block to break it free, and save from renting a crane and removing the hood.

Looks like another lifter went bad.

I can see how bottoming out the plunger and running the engine would crush the internal components, because this would cause dynamic loads over thousands of cycles.

What I don't see is how I could crush the lifter during adjustment by working the plunger through its full movement one, two or three times to make sure that I'm at the top of it's travel for zero lash. Also, setting the intake valve correctly on cylinder 1 for example, followed by hand rotation of the crank and adjustment of the remaining valves, will cause the intake valve on cylinder 1 to cycle through its full movement at least twice, exerting full valve spring pressure on the lifter, hence bottoming it out with about 300# of force. If this does "crush the lifter", then how is it possible to adjust the remaining valves? Also, how do the lifters not "get crushed" when the engine sits for any length of time, with partial or full valve spring pressure on about 1/4 of the lifters? Someone please clue me in.

I note that out of the 13 of 16 lifters that have collapsed completely (or nearly so), the #1 intake and exhaust are the LEAST collapsed, having retained 3/4 turn of plunger travel.

Well, it looks like it happened yet again. After working out my ignition problems, running the car trouble-free down the road, slow acceleration to 88 mph, slow deceleration and an extended run at 50 mph, then slow acceleration up to 94 mph and a slow deceleration, I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters. I drove the last three miles home and let the engine cool, started it up a few days later. Yup, noisy lifters again.

All but three lifters had collapsed either completely or totally. #1 I&E, I can get about 3/4 turn compressing the internal spring. I put in fresh oil, tried priming the lifters through the distributor, and no change on any of the lifters.

I'm signed up for a car show on Saturday so really want to get this fixed. I set all the valves to 3/8 turn from the bottom, started the engine and the noise was worse than before. So I tightened all up 1/8 turn, the noise was a little better, test drove for about 5 miles and couldn't stand the sound of it.

I'm thinking to tighten all another 1/8 turn, and if that doesn't work set all to the bottom of the internal spring travel. Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.

Many of us begged you to pull a lifter apart to see why it failed. At one point you offered to send a bad one to anyone who asked. I did. Then, nothing. You offered no explanation for the many failed SETS of expensive roller lifters. Lifters are easy to inspect, measure and diagnose.

Just met with David, Mike's engine guy. The only thing he found was that the rings had not seated properly, and two valve stems were worn. He can find no reason why the lifters failed. Everything else was perfect. The cam looks brand new.

He's going to install valve guides where needed, re-hone the block, install new rings and bearings. The other changes that he recommends, and I just approved, is to smooth out the oil drain back holes in the heads, change to a Lunati base type roller cam to get the smoothest idle, a regular flow high pressure oil pump, a stock type oil pan, and use 5W-30 oil.

Valve guides don't go bad in a couple hundred miles.

Hiding the weenie helps nobody and neither does denial. If I had ONE lifter go bad, I would not rest until the root cause was exposed. Again, cams don't destroy hydraulic roller lifters. You had dozens fail. You changed your first cam because it was too aggressive and your builder didn't dissuade your choice which ended up costing many hundreds more.

If only one of our members can learn from these mistakes, THAT is what we're here for. - Dave

[scumdog]

Steve, this isn't about who is right.

Roller cams do not destroy lifters, especially not different lifters. You're on your fourth set of very expensive roller lifters. Remember, these are some of your posts:


Many of us begged you to pull a lifter apart to see why it failed. At one point you offered to send a bad one to anyone who asked. I did. Then, nothing. You offered no explanation for the many failed SETS of expensive roller lifters. Lifters are easy to inspect, measure and diagnose.

Valve guides don't go bad in a couple hundred miles.

Hiding the weenie helps nobody and neither does denial. If I had ONE lifter go bad, I would not rest until the root cause was exposed. Again, cams don't destroy hydraulic roller lifters. You had dozens fail. You changed your first cam because it was too aggressive and your builder didn't dissuade your choice which ended up costing many hundreds more.

If only one of our members can learn from these mistakes, THAT is what we're here for. - Dave

More or less what Dave said.

The Kiwi way would be: stuffed lifter(s)? - find out the reason, no guessing, get it right and fix whatever the problem was then replace the lifters.
Wrong cross-hatch? Somebody should get a figurative kick in the pants first up. Then re-hone, re-ring and glue the motor back together.
The other bit like valve guides should not need touching IF they had been rebuilt/refurbished/replaced when the motor was built.
It costs way too much for parts here in The Land of the Long White Cloud to replace parts willy-nilly.
Not bagging you Yadkin, just frustrated on your behalf after reading of your problems and your attempts to get thing right.
And I believe in publicing my car problems - (a) to see if anybody can assist and (b) to warn others so hopefully they don't end up with the same problem.

[Yadkin]

Steve, this isn't about who is right. It's about helping others, even if learning is from our mistakes. Less than a year ago, your builder recommended 15W-50 oil in a new engine when your cam company recommended no higher than 10W-30 (which is what Ford uses):



Roller cams do not destroy lifters, especially not different lifters. You're on your fourth set of very expensive roller lifters. Remember, these are some of your posts:









Many of us begged you to pull a lifter apart to see why it failed. At one point you offered to send a bad one to anyone who asked. I did. Then, nothing. You offered no explanation for the many failed SETS of expensive roller lifters. Lifters are easy to inspect, measure and diagnose.

Valve guides don't go bad in a couple hundred miles.

Hiding the weenie helps nobody and neither does denial. If I had ONE lifter go bad, I would not rest until the root cause was exposed. Again, cams don't destroy hydraulic roller lifters. You had dozens fail. You changed your first cam because it was too aggressive and your builder didn't dissuade your choice which ended up costing many hundreds more.

If only one of our members can learn from these mistakes, THAT is what we're here for. - Dave

Dave, the simple act is that you don't know what caused the problem, yet you insist on bashing a well-respected machinist for 'not cleaning oil galleries', even claiming parts seizure and related damage. I had a second gentleman, David S., do a complete disassembly and inspection prior to installing a new cam and he found nothing of the sort.

[stubbie]

In his words "It appears the car threw a rod today" but he won't know for sure until he breaks it down in a week or 2.