charging system

[bird 60]

Hi Marco, to me the Brushes look O.K. but what was the problem? Also could you send additional Photos so that we can see the condition of the Armature & Commutator.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

[simplyconnected]

Marco, God Bless you for taking the bull by the horns, and doing it yourself. I have lots of respect for guys like you. We all started out the exact same way. I assume you got your pulley off. Nice cleanup job, too.

New brushes measure .9" long. I would discard them at about 5/8" (.63"). Marco's pictures tell a lot, not from the length of the brushes, but by the contour at the ends.

I would love to see pictures of the copper commutator segments. That's the real business-end of a generator.

tee-bird.com (in Pennsylvania) sells all the parts for your generator, at a reasonable price:
Brush set (set of two) - US$6.50 (Part #10069B)
Spring, generator brush - US$2.75 (Part #10057A)
Kit, generator repair, including two brushes, two springs, and both bearings - US$$26.90 (Part #10001A)
(Call or visit their site to confirm prices.)

After you are familiar with your generator, the starter motor works nearly exactly the same. It has four brushes instead of two. You can either buy the whole remanufactured starter for US$130 + exchange, OR you can check your brushes and save a ton of money. A set of four starter brushes at tee-bird sells for US$7 (part #11057A).

I sincerely hope everyone performs preventive maintenance on their Thunderbird. These parts NEVER get any attention, and they are so inexpensive to maintain. If the thought of removing these parts makes you cringe, then you will most likely look for parts at the most inconvenient time and place, because of catastrophic failure. - Dave

[Guest]

wiring at the generator

I put everything back together and it's not charging. I think my problem doesen't have anything to do with the generator. I think I have had my generator wired wrong. Question, The yellow wire, red wire and black /white wire. These all go to the generator. Where do they go? I have been using the yellow wire as a ground wire, it's connected to the back of the generator...right? Red wire is "arm" black/white is "field"

Today I was told that the yellow is the "arm" the red is ground and the Black/white wire is "field" if this is true I have had my charging system wired wrong for some time now. Since I drive my car once a month and never at night this could be my problem.

Please advize What is the correct wiring for my T-Bird. Nothing is burned or sparking I guess it just dosen't chrarge.

[Dutchbird]

Chris and Dave (in random order)

I'll take and upload some more pics, but not be able to work on it until upcoming weekend again.
Keep you informed..........

[Guest]

Hey Rodney,
See if this helps! Lower picture.
Richard D. Hord

[simplyconnected]

Birdbrain, you need to follow the steps outlined at the beginning. First, make sure your generator is putting out. If a wire gets hot, stop. If it puts out ok, THEN address the wiring. It's ok to run your generator when it is disconnected. Make sure you tape any dangling wires so they don't touch ground or get caught on anything.

There are only three wires going from your generator to your regulator. Two should be big (Armature & Neg/Ground), the other should be small (Field). These wires COULD be the same color; it doesn't matter. To be correct, you can use colored electrical tape on the ends as markers. Disconnect a battery cable, then disconnect the wire harness from the regulator AND the generator. Ring your three wires with your meter using the ohm scale.

Richard, I hope you don't mind, I used your diagram and labeled the components:

Notice two things: This generator only has two wires (A & F). They assume chassis is ground. There are two #10 Yellow wires. (Alright, one is yellow w/black band.) But they both go to the regulator as "A" & "B". This can be confusing.

On our Ford cars, the generator has a ground wire that attaches to the side of the regulator (normally with a condensor).

The ground wire is equally important as the power wire. They should be the same size copper, #10-AWG. It can make the difference between the system working or not. To put it another way, if NEG never gets to the battery, then the generator will never put out. Which begs another question... Birdbrain, did you clean the battery connections REAL WELL? Is your engine and chassis BOTH grounded?

[Guest]

Thanks all for the photos and diagrahms

I guess my last question is, does the "armature" wire connect to the back of the generator? Does the "field" and ground wirs connect at the two terminals on top. This is a very simple question I have looked at the diagrahm however when you look at the real life generator on your 1958-60 generator no matter what color the wires are do they connect the why I have described? thanks, Rodney

[Guest]

Hey Rodney,
The armature wire will connect to the back of the generator and to the A on the voltage regulator. The F (field) on the generator will connect to the F on the voltage regulator. G (ground) to ground.
Richard D. Hord

[simplyconnected]

You should have two insulated posts:
One is small (#10 screw); it is the Field post.
The other is larger (1/4" or larger); it is the Armature post.
The Ground wire goes to the case with NO insulation.

Whether it is on the back or side, look at it this way; when you had it apart, one post wire went straight to a brush. That must be the Armature post. The smaller Field post just connects to the windings inside and doesn't get a brush.

So, here we are, working on cars that are fifty years old. Some things change; wire colors, generator brands and configurations, voltage regulators, etc. Electricity is an exact physical science that never changes. If you follow my suggestions without skipping steps, I can help you find the solution to your charging problems, using sound troubleshooting techniques. I am patient and don't mind helping. In fact, if you need to send me a picture, here's my email address:
simplyconnected@aol.com - Dave

[Guest]

second guessing is not science

Thanks for the info, you are right the armature terminal is connected to one of the brushes and it is on the back plate of my generator. I did not think I had the wires crossed on my generator all those years. It never left me on the side of the road so it could not have been wrong. I quess the voltage reg was the weak link as I have sent for one and then I will know if that's all that's wrong with my system. In my case the ground is on top of the generator next to the field terminal.

[Dutchbird]

Hi Marco, to me the Brushes look O.K. but what was the problem? Also could you send additional Photos so that we can see the condition of the Armature & Commutator.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

Chris, thanks for your review on my brushes. Here's a picture:

[Dutchbird]

Marco, God Bless you for taking the bull by the horns.....I assume you got your pulley off.
I would love to see pictures of the copper commutator segments. That's the real business-end of a generator. - Dave

Dave, the pulley finally went off so I can proceed with my "learning-on-the-job."
Here are the latest pics I took today for everyone to judge:

[simplyconnected]

Marco, this is the business end of your Armature:



It looks nearly brand new, but it also looks like it hasn't been run in a while. We are looking for obvious defects, but I don't see any.

Defects would include burned segments, deep grooves, solder melting out of the joints, taper, etc.

The segments are made of soft copper, separated by micarta wafers. Yours looks great, but we need to run some tests.

The brushes ride on opposite segments. Put your meter on the OHM scale and measure the resistance of opposing segments. Your resistance should be the same as you rotate and measure each pair of segments. Next, put your meter prod on the iron in the middle, and go around the segments with the other prod. Your reading should show infinity (LOTS of resistance, or Mega-OHMS).

If all this checks ok, clean the commutator segments with something no more abrasive than a pencil eraser. If there is any varnish on the surface, you just want to clean that off. It doesn't need to be shiny. What you are looking at is little bits of carbon embedded in the copper segments, which is a good thing.

Set your armature aside for a moment, and perform the same resistance checks on your Field coils, then check them to ground as well.

I would like to see a picture of the inside, where the post attaches to the field. There is a reason your generator stopped producing power, but I don't see a problem, yet. Marco, you are doing a good job of cleaning. While you're in there, check the bearings for slop. When they go bad they make lots of noise. When they're REAL bad, your armature steel will start scraping the field coils.

[Dutchbird]

I would like to see a picture of the inside, where the post attaches to the field. There is a reason your generator stopped producing power, but I don't see a problem, yet.

Thanks a lot so far Dave!
(And sorry Rodney for jumping in your thread, but you started it the right time....)


I'll try to make and post a picture of your question tomorrow after work.
(Do you mean where the very small wire is attached on the inside of the "housing"?)
Also thanks for your kind words, I'll do my best to follow all the tips/suggestions made by everyone in this thread in the near future. I'm doing my best as a rookie on this but don't want to rush anything.
Maybe exept all the cleaning, I'll do a little paintjob as well as it is off the car now.
According to the number of tests described in this thread; it also takes a little time for me to translate English properly so I know what I'm doing..................when I'll run them.

[simplyconnected]

...I'll do a little paintjob as well as it is off the car now.
...it also takes a little time for me to translate...

Marco, if you really want to paint, there is special paint we use inside motors, transformers, and generators. General Electric makes GLYPTOL, a NON-conductive (dielectric) paint that you can brush-on. The color looks like rust (dark red). Before Glyptol, we used shellac, or anything to keep moisture away from copper wires and bare steel.

Most of my terms are technical. If you are not sure what I mean, please ask me again.

The pictures you took are excellent. They are in focus and up-close. They are so good, I enlarged one of yours to show just the commutator segments.

Now, I would like to see a picture of the inside of the generator housing where the posts come through. Show me where the Field wires attach to the post, and where they attach to each other.

The Field wires are connected in series. They start at the post, attach from one coil to the other, and the last connection is to ground. All Field connections are inside the housing. - Dave Dare