This will take you to the main site where there is history, technical information and other information on these cars.
This takes you back to the main page of the forums.
This is the control panel to change your password, information and preferences on this message board.
Click here if your lost your password or need to register on this message board. You must be a registered user to post. Registration is free.
Search this board for information you need.
Click here to buy cool Squarebirds mechandise.
Click here to support Squarebirds.org. For $20 annually receive 20mBytes webspace, a Squarebirds e-mail address and member's icon on the message board.
  #41  
Old 01-12-2016, 01:36 AM
Randy's Avatar
Randy Randy is offline
Experienced
 
Join Date: Dec 21 2015
Posts: 230
Randy is on a distinguished road
Default

good job keeping us inform we learn pic up stuff that I don't want
happening to me, if I can help it ,
__________________
"You're never too old to become younger".!(MW)
Randy's Save the Bird Foundation
In Beautiful Fallbrook California
http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...ryNumber=60747
!.This is the Greatest Square on Earth.!
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-12-2016, 01:51 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,207
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

I appreciate Steve's honesty. It's easy to tell folks on the world wide web about your successes but it's a hard pill to swallow when things go bad and the damage report includes hundreds or thousands of dollars lost.

So, kudos to Steve for his honest reports and the pictures he posts. We all learn more from failures so we can steer clear of them.

I hope Steve has seen the last of any troubles with his build. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-12-2016, 02:57 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 11 2012
Posts: 1,910
Yadkin is on a distinguished road
Default

This has been a difficult project for me due to the expense, but more so because of the unreliability of some local folks that I relied on. In that group I'll include COMP as they had a known issue with a parts supplier. Kevin's lengthy process to rebuild the motor meant that the warranty period was behind me when the problem revealed itself. In no sense whatsoever will I include Kevin in this group, as he had been upfront with me about his schedule and his work has proven to be first-rate. In retrospect I should have had him assemble the top end but I was impatient.

Next was my impatience to get the issue fixed and meet a deadline of when my Dad was passing through. He's 85 and not going to be making the trip forever- I really wanted the chance to take him for a ride in the car and his enthusiasm when I was able to do so was obvious. And this is my dad, one of the "old school" guys that doesn't show a lot of emotion. He was thrilled. In order to meet that deadline I had to next-day deliver expensive parts, then hire someone to put them in who basically lied about his expertise.

Am I upset about install #2 that turned out to be a failure? How can I be- as I made my dad happy, and he doesn't need to know about the problems I had with it later.

This isn't the first time in my life or even professional career that I've made mistakes. Any professional that tell you he's never made a mistake is either a liar or has never worked on a complicated project. As I tell my clients, I've made mistakes in the past and expect to make more of them in the future. The key is to learn from them, deal with any issues that you have caused and don't repeat them.

What I've learned here is similar to what I've learned professionally. Take your time. Take advice with a grain of salt. Pay attention to the machine. Rely on tactile feedback and common sense. Be patient. Double-check your work.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-04-2016, 05:36 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 11 2012
Posts: 1,910
Yadkin is on a distinguished road
Default

Well, it looks like it happened yet again. After working out my ignition problems, running the car trouble-free down the road, slow acceleration to 88 mph, slow deceleration and an extended run at 50 mph, then slow acceleration up to 94 mph and a slow deceleration, I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters. I drove the last three miles home and let the engine cool, started it up a few days later. Yup, noisy lifters again.

All but three lifters had collapsed either completely or totally. #1 I&E, I can get about 3/4 turn compressing the internal spring. I put in fresh oil, tried priming the lifters through the distributor, and no change on any of the lifters.

I'm signed up for a car show on Saturday so really want to get this fixed. I set all the valves to 3/8 turn from the bottom, started the engine and the noise was worse than before. So I tightened all up 1/8 turn, the noise was a little better, test drove for about 5 miles and couldn't stand the sound of it.

I'm thinking to tighten all another 1/8 turn, and if that doesn't work set all to the bottom of the internal spring travel. Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-04-2016, 08:36 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,207
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadkin View Post
I'm not pulling the motor and undoing all Kevin's work...
...These lifters were ruined by the Joker that I hired to help me last time. He's since been fired by the way, not for this but for other crap that he's screwed up. And he's no longer working as a mechanic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadkin View Post
Well, it looks like it happened yet again...
I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters...

...Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.
No.
Steve, hydraulic lifters work exactly the same, roller or flat. It simply makes no difference.

You have gone through four sets of very expensive lifters. You know my suggestions. They are the same today as they were months ago.

History has proved, if you change lifters again, they will probably fail. Wise up and get to the root cause instead of continuing this lunacy. Evidently, the "joker" that helped you last time is not the cause of four sets of failed lifters.

If you want to find the true cause of your lifter problems follow my prior posts. You are an engineer so you know there is nothing mystical about simple mechanics because the evidence always speaks for itself. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-04-2016, 11:28 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 11 2012
Posts: 1,910
Yadkin is on a distinguished road
Default

I removed and cleaned the oil pan, pressurized the oil system and found good pressure to the lifter galleries. I even checked the height of the gallery holes with the necked down of the lifters, found them compatible. Not sure what good disassembling the short block would do.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-05-2016, 04:22 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,207
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Steve, the quoted post is #15 from Christmas Eve. Please read it a few times.

I don't meant to be critical or judgmental but rather to help you. I believe if you had followed these steps your problems would have been identified and gone back then.

Pointing fingers of blame helps nobody and it doesn't fix your situation. That is NOT my intent.

Your engine gave good service for many years until it got old and tired. The only major change that happened between then and now is the overhaul. I don't know who did it and I don't want to know. The evidence proves it wasn't done properly. Before you put your engine back into service it must be done properly. If you don't, the consequences will certainly repeat themselves again.

In previous posts, I hoped that you would grind off the 'link rivet' on one of the bad lifters so you could actually see what is causing your problems. I believe the culprit is not dirt. To be more specific, I will shoot from the hip and predict machine shop debris is in your oil galleries. There is only one sure way to know and that is to disassemble a few of your bad lifters and look.

If you send a couple bad lifters to me I will look for you and share pictures of my findings:
Dave Dare
2112 N. Vermont Ave.
Royal Oak, MI 48073-4204

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Steve, this is Christmas Eve and I have nothing but love in my heart for you and empathy for your situation. Merry Christmas, my friend.

I'm not totally good with the way engines are oiled but these are the facts... Oil, and everything in it, goes through your pump rotors first then it splits two ways. Either it continues to the filter or it gets dumped back to the oil pan from the pressure relief valve. If oil goes to your filter 'junk' may get trapped in the element or the internal bypass valve will open. All oil from the filter goes to your oil galleries for distribution.

When an overhaul is performed it is absolutely imperative that all plugs be removed in the block and all ports are reamed (usually with a long brush in solvent). This should dislodge dirt in the nooks and crannies. High pressure wash is next, in both directions of each port.
Let's stop right here. I've seen various degrees of the above 'cleanliness'. The factory cannot afford failures because they need to ship 1,000 good engines per day. Huge money is spent on machines that perform the washing process after all machining is done.

Since 'time is money' little shops normally don't chase all the threads and they may miss a plug or two. Sometimes this is due to having many people work on an engine. Quite frankly, this is the reason I take lots of pictures during the process. I instruct the machine shop to only install cam bearings after they wash. I check cam bearing orientation then I use high pressure in all the galleries before I install all the plugs. If anything is left in a gallery it may eventually affect the working components (like roller lifters).

A small nick in the crank from a connecting rod bolt thread will peel Babbitt bearing material off in a circle. It's made of tin, copper and antimony. With any luck the bearing will still work but where does the debris go?

Many mechanics will only buy 'factory' short blocks, then build from there. This is where crate engines shine because they were made on the same assembly line with production engines. The equipment is state of the art and the assemblers make 1,000 good engines per day every day.

Bottom line: Mechanical parts always leave witnesses behind. I let them speak for themselves. One of our members had a cam bolt back out. It sent aluminum pieces from the timing cover into the oil pan but the engine kept running until the fuel pump eccentric fell off. Someone forgot the Loctite. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-05-2016, 11:55 AM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 11 2012
Posts: 1,910
Yadkin is on a distinguished road
Default

I understand Dave, no worries.

I do, however, need you to understand that I have immense faith in Kevin Bush and his shop. Remember that both Kevin and I read Barry Rabotkink's chapter on oil modifications for the FE, then chose a high volume pump and restrictors to the heads. Kevin also streamlined the oil galleries, threaded the block for screw-in plugs, and I assure you thoroughly cleaned the galleries again, before installing the plugs.

I just talked with my friend Mike Boger at Classic Metal (he's working on my 74 Fiat Spider right now). He had an FE motor in a Mustang years ago and had oiling problems; he had a 9 qt pan with a high volume oil pump, and it would still run the bottom end out of oil at high RPMs. He eventually had to install a dry sump kit.

Although I restricted the oil flow to the heads on this build, Mike thinks that I may have run the bottom end out of oil when I did my slow roll up to 94 mph, then back down to 70, the other night. That equates to about 3500 rpm. When I got off the highway a few minutes later I heard the engine making bottom end noises that I had not heard with this motor before, but the engine quited down a lot after just a few seconds, but not completely, to lifter tapping noises.

I just cut the cover off the Wix filter that was on the engine and am bringing to over to Kevin and talk this over with him.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-05-2016, 03:30 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,207
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Steve, you keep bringing personalities, reputations and 'faith' into this mechanical problem. At the same time you refuse to look inside the failed lifters. I don't understand. Are you afraid of what you might find?

You have a lifter problem, so you cut into the oil filter. Isn't it obvious, if debris were caught in the filter it could not get into your lifters? We already discussed, the oil pan, pump and filter come before the oil galleries. Oil modifications were done downstream of the filter.

This will conclude my comments regarding your lifter problems as my suggestions are well documented. Mechanical problems are completely void of reasoning and they cannot be negotiated with. Lifters have no reputations to uphold or toes to step on. They are self evident. All the 'talk' in this world is not going to discover hard evidence or solve your problem.

You have installed different brands of precision lifters that cost thousands of dollars and they all failed the same way. Every one of those lifters were designed to last under rigorous racing conditions for decades, not 30 days.

Instead of investigating the cause, your remedy has been to install more new lifters and every time, the results produce more failed lifters. From an engineering standpoint, if your solutions produce the same failures, logic tells us not to repeat them. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-05-2016, 10:09 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 11 2012
Posts: 1,910
Yadkin is on a distinguished road
Default

Relying on reputations as part of the investigation process is used in every field.

The filter paper was clean, no debris at all.

Regarding the theory that debris was left in the oil galleries, I discussed this with Kevin, and he just shook his head. "If that were the case, it would have been flushed down stream with the previous set of lifters." I had been thinking the same thing.

Kevin doesn't have a theory that he's comfortable with either. He notes that a lot of manufacturer's don't make their own stuff anymore, especially the low volume stuff. He thinks that there is really only two factories making them. After seeing what happened with me, he's lost confidence in both of them.

He suggests calling Lunati with a warranty claim, then asking if I can drill out one rivet to investigate further.

He also mentioned that I could go with a solid roller on the same cam. Just verify the application with whatever manufacturer I go with. Expect a "sewing machine" sound under the hood.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:21 PM.

Driving, racing or working on cars can be hazardous. The procedures and advice on this website including the message board are opinion only. Squarebirds.org and its webmasters and contributors do not guarantee the correctness of the advice and procedures. The Squarebirds.org and its webmasters assume no liability for any damage, fines, punishment, injury or death resulting from following these procedures or advice. If you do not have the skills or tools to repair your car, please consult a professional. By using this site you agree to hold harmless the Squarebirds.org, its authors and its webmasters from any resulting claim and costs that may occur from using the information found on this site.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Any submissions to this site and any post on this site becomes property of Squarebirds.org . The webmasters reserve the right to edit and modify any submissions to this site. All material on this is site is copyrighted by the Squarebirds.org. Reproduction by any means other than for personal use is strictly prohibited. Permission to use material on this site can be obtained by contacting the webmasters. Copyright 2002-2016 by Squarebirds.org.