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  #71  
Old 05-13-2016, 09:26 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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It is of my opinion (for what ever that's worth?), that you follow the oil recommendations that were given by your engine builder and ignore someone in a so called "tech" department, who has no business doing such, and is probably only attempting to redirect any fault in your lifter failures.

You indicated that your beliefs were that the oil clearances are on the generous side, and I would find this to be consistent with the practice from a capable engine builder (with insight on the subject), and also with the general requirements of the FE engine, for a number of reasons. It is this, that dictates the viscosity/weight value that is appropriate first and foremost, with considerations of the intended environment (who, where & how in the world is driving it).

We use these oils (J.G.) and find them to be fine products (no I won't get a check), and can assure you that your lifter failures were not do to this viscosity. This oil will pass the (properly executed) lifter valving and in the FE it dead ends here, with exception of that which "leaks" past the clearance between the plunger and the body/s****. It is necessary for oil pressure to build in the lifter gallery & between the lifter's O.D. and the block's lifter bore in order for the oil to force/flow into the lifter reservoir below the plunger. Therefore, it is good practice to establish what the clearances or wear values are in the block bores. If the oil viscosity (reasonable) were to high then one would assume the only drawback would be: for those valves in the open position @ shut down, oil has been forced out & plunger is down the bore due to spring pressure applied, recover at start-up might be sightly slower; and in a valve float scenario were the plunger may move up the s****'s bore attempting to hold the valve open even when it (lifter) is on the heal of the cam lobe (the effect the driver realizes) the leakage about the plunger to bore relationship may be retarded some thereby extending the time of recovery to nominal (sightly).

As of your adjustment process; I always say, "if it works for you, keep at it", but, allow me to suggest a process that I prefer. First, wash lifters in clean solvent, one to clean them, and remove any oil from the reservoir so that the plunger moves freely (soaking maybe necessary to thin oil trapped inside lifter), apply light oil (WD-40) to inhibit corrosion (do not submerge).

At time of installation lubricate block lifter bore w/ oil, w/ roller lifters, dip body in oil ensuring roller bearing is saturated but not filling lifter's internals; w/flat tappets apply high pressure lube/grease to faces only; slip into bores (if binding exists stop look).

All of the other valve train components (rockers/shafts, push rod/manifold, adj. screws & nuts) must function freely/smoothly, if not, fix it.

The value of the hyd. lifter is that using pressure to supply oil and inability of the mechanics to compress the oil captured, the plunger floats in the lifter body and self positions it's self, creating a zero lash effect even as parts wear (also allows sloppier tolerances in the engineering & production). We normally position the plunger closer to the top verses the bottom for a number of reasons. Therefore,we measure from the top down verses from the bottom up.

Assuming you have a lifter w/ the typical performance aftermarket lifter plunger travel distance of approx. .080" +/- (you should know as in the cleaning process you established freedom of movement in the plungers; note their are others), generally, the established value of .020" - .040" lifter plunger preload (distance the plunger is compressed from the retainer) is accepted. Always inquire with the manufacture if in doubt.

When adjusting, establish (rotating adjusting fixture) the point where the clearance in the valve train is removed but, without preloading the plunger, then turn the adjusting fastener that which equites the desired preload. With the plunger free to move this requires feel & light touch, but is best way to know where your at in reference to zero. If you start with the lifters "pump-up", as you rotate the engine you force the oil out of the lifters and you end up with varying feel/technique as you proceed and don't know where the plunger is in it's bore height wise.

Your concerns over damaging lifters, rotating engine by hand (or bump starter) and allowing plungers to "bottom-out" is unfounded (unless some real cheap China sh't).

When complete pour oil over all valve train components slap-on valve covers. Always prime engine before starting. I also prefer to rotate engine w/ starter (spark plugs removed & battery charger attached) to establish oil pressure, install plugs & start.

BTW is this a 390 or 410, or? In the photo of your engine, I noticed that the block has the additional main webs & also the unmachined bosses for the cross-bolt caps which we most often encountered with the Mercury 410 cu.in. engines of I believe 1964 +/- vintage. Scott.
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  #72  
Old 05-14-2016, 05:46 AM
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Proper oiling is a major concern for any manufacturer who includes a long engine warranty. We can do a lot of double talk or we can 'feel as if' about a build but the big boys in Detroit spend millions (yes, many millions) on Engine Engineering. Follow your manufacturer's lead and their suggestions.

You mentioned oil viscosity and how it affects flow and pressure. This science is very easy to prove. Your article avers that cars 'up north' suffer in cold weather. The oil gets so thick that viscosity and flow cannot be measured for the first two or three minutes of run time. They suggest, if the engine is not under load, wear is minimized until the temps reach over 100F. That is the reason for using 10W-30 (or 5W-20), even on new engines.

Oil filters cannot possibly work during this time. In fact they bypass nearly ALL the oil until the viscosity thins out:
CLICK HERE for BOBISTHEOILGUY's post regarding filtration bypass.

According to this information, it is no wonder your oil filter was clean when opened. BTW, I agree with his findings. Too much viscosity starves engine components when they are cold. - Dave
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  #73  
Old 05-14-2016, 11:28 AM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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The subject of proper oil viscosity & oil flow values within an engine can be a complicated & long drawn-out discussion, and rightfully with no singular conclusion. The number of variables involving the "who, what & where in the world" are to vast for this forum compile (or any other that I have read).

If you have confidence in your engine builder (hopefully), allow their experience & wisdom on the matter guide you. This is some of what you pay for from the professional (vs. some neighbor/buddy/guy who knows about cars & works out of his garage at home, nites & weekends - CHEAP!). Your engine (FE) is no longer as it left Ford 30-40+ yrs ago; nor are the lubricating oils what Ford was familiar with at that time.

Oil filter by-pass somes (never "all") & instances alone is complicated and involves many considerations, again to vast for this forum to draw any steadfast singular conclusion. I will inject that with testing on our part, I would recommend for a typical screw-on unit w/ O.E.M. mountings, using the Ford FL1 filters for standard vehicle operation, and the Ford FL1HP for the more spirited operations (where applicable). Scott.

And yes obviously, oil does not flow as readily when colder, and there are many ramifications within the engine to this, not just oil filter by-pass concerns. So, don't raise **** until the engine is up to "normal- operating-temperature", as maybe your father or grandfather told before.
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  #74  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:30 AM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
No, FE pushrods never used a center hole for oiling. Besides, I thought your problem was that the lifters collapsed.
I thought you were taking the day off work?..
My two biggest clients have me buried under structural engineering work, so less time for my hobby, and it has become much more difficult to take a day off during the week.

I attempted this last lifter install using 5W-30. The Howards are identical to the Lunatis. Except they failed to pump up from the beginning.
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  #75  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:36 AM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Last night I disassembled everything on the motor and the car is getting towed to Mike's tonight or tomorrow morning, then they'll pull the engine out. His engine builder, David, is going to tear it down and inspect everything. Once he gets to that point we'll have a conversation and decide how to go.

One change I want to make is to put an "RV" type cam in this motor. Roller hydraulic, but I'm going with smoothest idle and low end torque available. Even when everything was running perfect I wasn't satisfied with the idle quality. And I want best fuel economy.

I read through Bobs The Oil Guy. What Dave said about filter bypass is also a concern. I also want to use 5W-30 from the beginning.

I've been monitoring oil pressure and temperature on my Jeep for the past few days, a 3.6L Pentastar engine, noting temperature takes quite a while to get to it's plateau of 180F, about 20F lower than coolant temperature. This engine also has a 2 stage oil pressure system, applying 80 psi at start up and lowering to 40psi when warmed up. It will increase pressure with RPMs and apply the second stage at high RPMs, basically maintaining about 20psi per 1000 RPM.

This is why I like Rabotnik's recommendation for a HV oil pump. I think the old rule-of-thumb 10psi per 1000 RPM is out-of-date. Back in 1964 an engine was expected to last 100k miles; today 300k is more common. The increased oil pressure is why. That, and cleaner fuels, roller parts.
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  #76  
Old 05-17-2016, 09:12 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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I suppose the purpose for your posts in this forum maybe to receive some input from others concerning your foray in this matter? Well, you left the door open; good or bad here's a thought.

Please understand that in automotive engine applications we generally concern ourselves first, with the oil viscosity requirements that are necessary for engine survivability when under-load (even maximum-load) and normal-operating-temperature (w/ considerations for excessive oil temperature - simultaneously), where it generally spends most of it's time. One doesn't ignore cold-start-up concerns, and yes, compromises especially in the northern regions during winter, are made, but keep in mind, typically most premature engine damage/failures take place with the engine in use under-load, often due to excessive load & heat. Notice that with the Coyote 5.0 in the mustangs today, Ford recommends a 5w-50 viscosity oil. The best compromise we can make is to reduce the load & operating R.P.Ms until some heat is generated in the oil. This is good practice in your old FE engine and you more modern units also.

Your often smaller modern engines are engineered with reduced oil clearances thru out, for a number of reasons (including E.P.A), therefore require thinner oils for proper lubrication. One of the biggest problems when the oil is cold, is their complicated (compared to the FE anyway) overhead cam valve train, which with tight clearances (didn't want the oil losses like the FE) and small and sometimes complicated routeings, (lets not forget some also have hydraulic valve timing functions), no camshaft bearings (cam runs in head, maybe not ideal bearing material?), those are probably the biggest concerns and reasons for the oil pressure step-up in your example.

Many engine builders will recommend (speaking solely of viscosity) a "lighter" oil for break-in; but this circumstance is intended as "break-in", low load, no over-heat, controled R.P.M.s, right?

I have already commented on my preference of filters and some of their attributes concerning bypassing function are mentioned elsewhere, and the H.V. oil pump is necessary with generous clearances, and I stated that understanding bypass values can be complicated, but also understand that the filter has less oil to contend with when the oil is cold if only (and it's not) due to the pumps inefficiency with the correspondingly cold oil.

The 10 p.s.i. per 1000 rpm formula works fine with this type of engine in this format, as with the greater size of the parts & oil clearances, the oil flow is achieved without the required higher pressure & due to the tighter clearances of you modern example. Note that if your oil delivery system is more efficient you can/will lower the pressure required; capitalizing on this, increasing efficiency & function on a number of fronts and make more power. Many racing engines operate in the range of approx. 5 p.s.i. per 1000 r.p.m..

And, lifters (old american V8 style) function better with higher viscosity (reasonable) oil as it is not displaced as easily. Scott.
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  #77  
Old 05-18-2016, 08:51 AM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Thanks Scott. I don't think it's wise to use a race engine example as a guide to build a street engine. In a race environment oils get a lot hotter than in a street engine. According to Bob the oil guy, 100F hotter. Again, in my Jeep, normal oil temperature is 20F lower than the coolant, or 180F. There is no oil cooler that I am aware of anyway. Raise that temperature to 280F and a heavier weight oil would be necessary.

My TBird will see many short trips, and it's a much heavier engine, so will take longer to heat up than my Jeep. So much of its life will be spent with the oil temperature less than 180F.
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  #78  
Old 05-18-2016, 11:06 AM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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You are correct in that one wouldn't necessarily mimic all race engineering for a street engine, but my example was to explain that basically the pressure required is that which is required to overcome inefficiencies in the specific delivery system (and in the race applications more effort is applied and therefore less pressure may be required).

Yes, the engine under load generates more heat, and therefore the oil (among other things) operate at elevated temperatures in competition environment as compared to the average street application. But, ideally we want to keep the oil temps (as typically measured, in the oil pan) in the same average range for either application for best function/purpose of that oil. I feel that oil temps below 140are to cold & temps above 240 getting to hot. Of course there are exceptions, compromises & specific effects one might be looking for which would vary from these values, and yes some race instances do run 100+ more, but not for better effective values from the oil. Typical american V8 street engine's oil should operate normally between 185 +/- 10 range

This is why in high load use applications you find oil coolers; so as to maintain the nominal oil temperature values even when generating more heat, and you see truckers mask their radiators in the winter.

Today's synthetic oils, as compared to what was available when your car was manufactured, are much more stable at varying temperatures and this helps greatly during cold start-up with much more fluid flow (increased pourability). Scott.
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  #79  
Old 05-18-2016, 08:36 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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From what I've read about synthetics, since the molecules are derived from natural gas they are uniform, thus can be "dialed in" to a specific application. That and there are no impurities. Going way back into my organic chemistry class, I recall that crude oil is basically a "soup", a combination of big heavy molecules all the way to the light ones and volatiles. Thus a 30W oil is really a range of molecules that when mixed, make up a certain viscosity. And of course there are impurities that aren't doing your engine any good at all.

Guessing now, the behavior of the range over operating temperatures is therefore going to vary considerably between batches, and especially dependent on the source crude.

I remember back in the 70's that Quaker State used to advertise itself 'using Pennsylvania crude', with some explanation of consistency. Any consistency was probably more that that source had a longer history, thus wealth of specific data, to evaluate from.
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  #80  
Old 05-19-2016, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadkin View Post
Last night I disassembled everything on the motor...
...One change I want to make is to put an "RV" type cam in this motor. Roller hydraulic, but I'm going with smoothest idle and low end torque available...
Yes, I was wondering what you found in the lifters.

Most people know the performance they want but they don't know how to get it. They normally go overboard on their selection of cams with no understanding of exactly what they are buying. This is where the engine builder needs to intervene as the buyer listens intently.

I hear terms like "mild street cam" or "RV" cam. What they really want is something that pickup trucks offer. RVs are not driven on a daily basis. Pickup trucks are. RVs sit for long periods. Pickup trucks are used daily.

Truck heads have small valves for low end torque, without bogging down. In fact their engines are built for a heavy vehicle (like a classic T-bird) that is just as comfy around town as it is on the interstate. This service includes hauling a trailer but NOT racing.

If you want to race, get a small car with a huge engine like a Cobra or a Mustang because we go by 'horsepower-to-weight'. Build it up and you won't be beat.

Examine this TRUCK piston (C8TE.. from a 390 F-100):


Look at the color all around the inside. I heard all the talk about oil and how it runs about 200F. No it doesn't! The only way this piston was cooled was from OIL, bathing the bottom side. Combustion temps far exceed the melting temp of aluminum. This is a testament to aluminum and how well it transfers heat. Even so, conventional oil takes much more heat before it discolors, as the witness marks clearly show. All eight of them commonly send your oil pan to nearly 300F.

Today's oils are better than they were but they don't have ZDDP, a 'must have' for flat tappets. There are many reasons modern engines last 300k (even flat tappet Jeep engines). They LOWERED the compression ratios, raised the operating temps, use far more aluminum and they control coolant temps and air-to-fuel ratios much closer to 14.7:1.

Economy is another issue. If you are running a mechanical fan you're wasting HP by running it when it isn't needed, like at startup and for the next mile or two. Some winters, my electric fan doesn't turn on for months. Your doctor will tell you to lose weight. Your car should lose weight too because a heavy vehicle produces a lot of power to get it going.
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