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  #61  
Old 05-10-2016, 11:35 AM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Steve at Howards called me back. I had asked him about the 15W-50 oil that I was told to use. They want to see 10W-40, maximum viscosity.
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  #62  
Old 05-10-2016, 08:51 PM
stubbie stubbie is offline
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Steve were you using the 15W-50 oil to start with or something else?
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  #63  
Old 05-11-2016, 12:09 AM
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I went with Kevin's recommendation to use Joe Gibbs BR1, which is a 15W-50 break in oil from the start. After a few hundred miles I switched to Joe Gibbs HR1, also a 15W-50 oil.

I spent quite a bit of time today reading up on oil viscosity. Bobistheoilguy has a "viscosity 101" through 201 and this explains viscosity vs. oil flow rate in generic terms. All xW-50 oils will have the same viscosity at operating temperature. My oil pump is going to flow oil at a rate increasing (approximately) linear with RPM until the pressure exceeds the bypass valve setting. After that point it will flow at a constant rate.

My engine oil should operate at about 210 degrees F. A race motor putting out max power will operate substantially higher, around 300 degrees, thus requiring a higher viscosity number to survive.

Melling doesn't advertise what the pump bypass pressure is, but I have had a mechanical gauge on this engine for initial startup and found this to be 80psi. Using a 50 weight oil, 80psi pressure will be exceeded at relatively low RPM.

Bob has some interesting charts in this article here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-109/

Bob's charts for 30 and 40 weight oil and a high volume pump suggests that 80 psi is reached with a 50 weight oil at less than 1500 RPM. After that, there will be no increase in flow. Oil flow rate is what lubricates plain bearings, so the bearings aren't being lubricated any better at 5500 RPM than at 1500 RPM.

From this I could take a (poorly) educated guess, that a 30 weight oil or possibly lower is going to maximize oil flow volume for my street motor that at 3500 RPM and will rarely see higher engine speeds.

Bob recommends experimenting with lower viscosity oils step-wise. For my application, that means switching from 50 to 40 weight.

Based on this I don't see a problem at all going to a conventional 10W-40 oil, approved by Howards for their lifters, and using a mechanical gauge to verify oil pressures and then possibly going a step further to 30 weight.
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  #64  
Old 05-11-2016, 01:26 AM
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'Pressure is resistance to flow.' <--carve this in stone. In a system that is missing an oil plug, there is no resistance so there is no pressure because oil simply dumps back to the pan as fast as the pump rotors can turn.

Inside your pump is a 'Pressure Relief Valve'. This is very important. If the pressure relief valve is stuck shut, pressure will be allowed to keep raising and your oil filter will burst. Don't ask me how I know.

Oil filters also have a bypass valve that works apart from the pump's pressure relief valve. When your oil is cold and viscous, resistance to flow is high, meaning pressure must also be high. The oil filter cannot possibly filter much high viscosity fluid so the bypass valve opens to allow flow.

15W-40(or 50) is something I would use in my air-cooled Harley-Davidson engine, not in a car engine. So, what does Ford use for break-in oil? Every Mustang I've ever seen went out the door with 10W-30, including Cobra-R engines (351W with roller lifters). They also use Motorcraft FL-1A filters. They were covered by a factory drivetrain warranty for at least 12,000 miles or more (some years were 50,000).

My wife's Ford Escape uses Motorcraft 5W-20 blended semi-syn. Again, less viscous and less resistance to flow so the efficiency produces better gas mileage and the filter rarely bypasses.

Do not confuse flow with pressure. The pressure relief valve spring is set at a specific pressure. As your oil warms it gets thinner. Engine oil flow increases as resistance decreases at the same pressure, because the oil is LESS viscous.

So more viscosity is not better. In fact it renders your filter useless, sending whatever it picks up from the pan into your galleries. When you open a lifter you will see. - Dave
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  #65  
Old 05-11-2016, 01:51 AM
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Steve from the few replies that I've had on the other forum it seems you may be crushing the lifter as you go past the 1/2 turn or crud in the lifter. You will need to pull some lifters apart to see what is going on exactly. If you pull some apart can you post some pics thanks.
Cheers
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  #66  
Old 05-11-2016, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Inside your pump is a 'Pressure Relief Valve'. ...

So more viscosity is not better. In fact it renders your filter useless, sending whatever it picks up from the pan into your galleries. When you open a lifter you will see. - Dave
Yes, as I mentioned the relief valve in my HV pump must be set at 80 psi or slightly less, because that's what my mechanical gauge read when I had it installed for the initial startup of this engine, a year or so ago. When the pressure relief valve opens, it flows excess oil back into the pan.

That is different that a filter bypass, which is internal to the filter. That is in the range of 10 psi, so that if the filter media gets completely clogged, the engine will still get pressurized oil, albeit unfiltered. I'm confident that never happened, based on my inspection of the filter media after three separate oil changes.
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  #67  
Old 05-11-2016, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stubbie View Post
Steve from the few replies that I've had on the other forum it seems you may be crushing the lifter as you go past the 1/2 turn or crud in the lifter. You will need to pull some lifters apart to see what is going on exactly. If you pull some apart can you post some pics thanks.
Cheers
I can see how bottoming out the plunger and running the engine would crush the internal components, because this would cause dynamic loads over thousands of cycles.

What I don't see is how I could crush the lifter during adjustment by working the plunger through its full movement one, two or three times to make sure that I'm at the top of it's travel for zero lash. Also, setting the intake valve correctly on cylinder 1 for example, followed by hand rotation of the crank and adjustment of the remaining valves, will cause the intake valve on cylinder 1 to cycle through its full movement at least twice, exerting full valve spring pressure on the lifter, hence bottoming it out with about 300# of force. If this does "crush the lifter", then how is it possible to adjust the remaining valves? Also, how do the lifters not "get crushed" when the engine sits for any length of time, with partial or full valve spring pressure on about 1/4 of the lifters? Someone please clue me in.

I note that out of the 13 of 16 lifters that have collapsed completely (or nearly so), the #1 intake and exhaust are the LEAST collapsed, having retained 3/4 turn of plunger travel.
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  #68  
Old 05-11-2016, 02:21 PM
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The new lifters will arrive here this afternoon. I'm taking tomorrow off to install them. I might set up my dash camera, and stick it on the underside of the hood, and record the adjustment procedure. If so I'll post it on Youtube for y'all to critique. I'm warning you ahead of time, you'll likely see a lot of the back of my bald head.

I'll number the old lifter sets and ship individual pairs unopened to anyone who is interested. I'll open one myself. I'll give at least one pair to Kevin, and another to Mike. I'll send one pair to Lunati if they are interested.
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  #69  
Old 05-13-2016, 06:39 PM
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Too busy at work to do this now.

One theory from a guy here is that the lifters can't "bleed out" because the pushrods are non-oiling. Does that have any merit?
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  #70  
Old 05-13-2016, 06:42 PM
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No, FE pushrods never used a center hole for oiling. Besides, I thought your problem was that the lifters collapsed.
I thought you were taking the day off work?..
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