Have you driven a new or near new 430?

[OX1]

Just curious what it drove like. Mine still has a mid throttle stumbling issue, which I have only tackled the fuel side of so far (seems OK after rebuild, I have a lot of years experience with the Carters/Edelbrocks).

Anyway, just curious what I am shooting for. I assume with an open diff, she should do a one wheel peel virtually forever with the advertised stock torque.

But with over 4000 lbs, a 2.4 first gear and 2.9ish diff, maybe not??

[simplyconnected]

OMG Henry, so much has changed since the 430 was produced. Let's start with your rebuild...
Did you bore the cylinders and replace all eight pistons?
If so, did you use DOMED pistons like the originals, or did you replace with flat-top pistons? Flat pistons lose a ton of original compression ratio and a lot of HP.

Original pistons come in RH and LH sets of four and nobody makes them (due to low demand). Some piston manufacturers will cast a set for ~$1,200. Then, they must match your new larger bore size. Actually, I have that wrong. We match bore size to the new pistons. That is why all sizes of pistons are NOT available, all the time. To be safe, they stock +.040" (or larger) pistons because they should fit all overhaul jobs.

Next, we need to talk about modern fuel that was NOT designed to run in a 430. Gasohol will ruin your OEM valves and modern low ZDDP oil will ruin your cam. The only remedy I know of is to use hardened exhaust seats and valves that won't weld to the seats. Yes, you can buy lead additive. As for the ZDDP, most oil with a viscosity of 40 in the numbers will work or you can buy zinc and phosphorus additives.

I love Ford products but the 430 is THE hardest engine to rebuild simply because parts are not available or they cost way too much money. Your oil pump also includes a vacuum pump. Wonderful, but where can you find one? I suggest 430 owners find a good core 390 and build that. They can produce MUCH more HP than the 430 and parts are everywhere. Edelbrock makes aluminum heads with all modern goodies, and intake manifold that saves 100 pounds. Add a roller camshaft and run that engine another 250,000 miles on pump gas and modern oil.

RE: Hesitation... My experience with older engines is, their cam is retarded from a stretched timing chain. Normally, a new timing set will correct this. When I build a street engine I advance cam timing by at least four degrees to bring torque peaks down closer to low and mid range rpms. Of course after timing set wear, the offset will settle closer to zero advance.

To set things right and proper, we normally reference with respect to the crankshaft. So, advancing the cam will RETARD the crank timing. That means, when the #6 piston is at TDC on it's exhaust stroke and the rocker arms are dead level, crank timing should show four degrees BTDC. - Dave

[OX1]

Funny you mention rebuild. I wasn't even thinking that, but the previous owner claims he did " rebuild" the engine.

My guess, maybe new rings/bearings, light hone, but who knows. I guess I could scope the cyl's and see if the original pistons are even still in it. Will check the chain too, now that you mention.

But anyway, back to my original question. If everything in this motor is up to snuff, all the parts are correct and not worn, shouldn't this motor shred tires almost instantly off idle?

I'm not looking to do burnout competitions, just trying to guage what power they had stock and how well it got to the ground.

[simplyconnected]

Just curious what it drove like. Mine still has a mid throttle stumbling issue, which I have only tackled the fuel side of so far (seems OK after rebuild, I have a lot of years experience with the Carters/Edelbrocks).

Anyway, just curious what I am shooting for. I assume with an open diff, she should do a one wheel peel virtually forever with the advertised stock torque.

But with over 4000 lbs, a 2.4 first gear and 2.9ish diff, maybe not??

I thought YOU mentioned the rebuild first. At least that's what I read into your post.

You have a very 'tall' rear end gear, one more common to convertibles. OEM engines deliver peak torque after 4,000 rpm. Rear end gears make a dramatic difference in wheel torque. The main reason we use low gear ratios is because lower gears tend not to break. Otherwise, all we need are bigger engines that produce more torque. Not so fast...

So, the quest begins... If your tires spin, use wider tires that are more sticky. That will turn more torque into speed. Unfortunately, that makes each tooth in the ring gear, the weakest link in this drive train. If you can get the pinion gear to engage more ring gear teeth, torque will spread out over a longer surfaces (like a 3.9:1 or 4.3:1 ratio). If the rear end stays together, what about the axles? I've seen them twisted 180-degrees before breaking. The solution is, racing axles. Next, the driveshaft... and it goes on.

To answer your question directly, your rear tires may NOT easily break free from a standing start. The torque converter locks up at low rpm, tires grab too well, the ring and pinion present a 90-degree 'wall' for torque to overcome, etc. The flip side is, you may get to 150-mph if your tires are 'V' rated. - Dave

[pbf777]

But anyway, back to my original question. If everything in this motor is up to snuff, all the parts are correct and not worn, shouldn't this motor shred tires almost instantly off idle?

YES!; well maybe not "shred", but certainly spin enough to please the tire companies!

My 1960 "J" code, with <80k on the odometer, all original (+ time & usage), with the selector in D1 (C.O.M. w/ 2.90:1 open rear) does the "one-wheel-peel" just fine.

The MEL Marauder series of engines was Ford Motor Company's "big gun" for 1958 and into 1959 (which they then pulled out of racing). The 430 cu. in. version was nick-named the "Bulldozer" due to the torque output and its' resulting performance. The top of the heap was the Super Marauder (J8 option) with aluminum intake and three dual venturi Holley 2300s rated at 400HP. This was the largest and most powerful (first to hit 400 hp) engine in the American car market at that time.

As far as being advised to remove the 430 MEL (if your vehicle is a "J" code unit, that in itself makes for a less common assembly), replacing with a 390 FE (although a good engine) because "it can produced MUCH more HP than the 430", well, this does not seem logical, and I would have to disagree.

Remember, friendly discussion, sometimes with opposing views, is the only way to discover all options.

Scott.

[simplyconnected]

...As far as being advised to remove the 430 MEL (if your vehicle is a "J" code unit, that in itself makes for a less common assembly), replacing with a 390 FE (although a good engine) because "it can produced MUCH more HP than the 430", well, this does not seem logical, and I would have to disagree...

Can you support this opinion?

The facts are;

• Domed pistons for the 430 MEL are 'custom made' only whereas 390 pistons are very available in OEM, forged and hypereutectic alloys.
  
• Many companies offer roller cam kits for the 390.
  
• Edelbrock makes direct bolt-on aluminum heads for the 390/427 at a fair price. These heads already include stainless valves, bronze guides, Viton seals, hardened seats and helicoiled holes. They also feature a thick 5/8" deck for those who want to shave them.
  
• Edelbrock makes a matching aluminum intake manifold which together with the aluminum heads, reduces 100 pounds weight and heat transfer is 4X faster than cast iron.
  
• 390 engines are available all over the USA because Ford put them in just about every car and truck line of the day.
  
• Yes, the 390 can easily outperform the 430 on many levels including; aftermarket support, availability, cost savings and HP. Remember, Ford Racing offers a 427, based on the 351Windsor. It produces over 500HP and over 500 ft/lbs torque. This 'across the counter' engine is naturally aspirated, runs on modern fuel, modern oil and it weighs less than 600 pounds.

I respect the 430 MEL but like the Chevy 409, it is an obsolete dinosaur that nobody supports. Aside from making your car a 'garage or trailer queen' when your 352 or 430 gets old and tired, keep it on an engine stand for the next owner, in case he wants to rebuild it. Meanwhile, hunt down a 390 and rebuild it to operate on modern liquids.

If there is a more viable alternative to bring the 430 back to original glory I would love to hear it. - Dave

[OX1]

I like the uniqueness and conversation piece of the 430 and I don't honestly think it needs a rebuild. Fires right up cold, no valve guide/seal smoke. Idles perfect, cold or hot.

Runs very strong until about half throttle. Leaks out of a lot of places, but I already planned for a re-gasket at some point. Anyway, I think it is timing or maybe the chain (or both).

That said, IF I was going to replace 430 (I'm not, I would rebuild, no matter the cost), it would be a BB/C6 combo. I already have a mildly built BB and a ton of 4WD known good C6's kicking around. Even with just a mild BB, it's hard for FE to economically make up for 70-80 cube loss.

Appreciate the info on the 430, will just keep plugging away on the stumble until I figure here out. Little by little this bird keeps getting better. Can't wait to figure out this stumbling issue, along with the disk brakes and sway bars. Going to be a fun cruiser then, for sure.

[simplyconnected]

...I would rebuild, no matter the cost...

Let me know how that works out for you.
Of the options you named, are any converted to run on modern liquids?
When I built my Y-Block I knew a 351W engine would be far cheaper to build but I bit the bullet and did the overhaul anyway. I love the sound of a Y but it is only 300 cubes and not expected to perform miracles in a Galaxie. Looking back, I doubt I would do it again because the engine is all cast iron, the center exhaust ports are still next to each other and the lifters will always be solid. I did a ton of oil modifications, match-weighed piston/rod assemblies, balanced the crankshaft, retimed the camshaft, added a true roller timing set, and much more. In retrospect, I should have used the 351W and AOD. - Dave

[pbf777]

Yes, the 430 is a unique engine and the top engine option for your car, adding value in many ways.

And, like the 409 in a 1961 Chevrolet Impala, I would not replace it with a GM 350 because it's as common as dirt, it'll be cheaper to rebuild, any idiot is willing to work on it, and parts are everywhere (7-Eleven?).

BTW, Edelbrock also makes aluminum heads for the GM "W" block, aka. 348/409s.

A supercharged MEL-powered dragster won the 1959 NHRA Nationals Top Eliminator defeating the Chrysler "Hemi"s. This was the Nationals' first supercharged Top Eliminator winner in NHRA history.

Also, Ford (w/ 430 equipped T-Birds) probably had the 1959 NASCAR Championship won, but chose to remove itself from racing mid year, honoring the Automotive Manufactures Association (AMA) ban (not so honored by others who may have benefited).

If one compares the intake port dimensions of the 1958-59 MEL 430 and the 1964-66 FE 427 "Hi-Riser", I think you'll realize obvious similarities. Basically, it appears that someone was under the impression, "it worked in 1959, why not now" (1964), and it did! Also, keep in mind that the MEL intake manifold is separated/divorced or as Edelbrock terms an "Air-Gap" design, requiring a valley plate under it to seal the valley area of the crankcase. Therefore, the intake charge volume is subjected to less heat exposure than that of the FE, and it's even possible that the superior insulatory value of the iron might help maintain a cooler inlet charge within? But it is heavy!

The FE replaced the MEL as Ford Motor Company's performance engine when Ford reentered racing in 1960 as apparently they decided that the performance marketing value would benefit the Ford product line better than that of Mercury.

I agree that the FE receives more support today in the after-market than the MEL, but make no mistake, both are "dinosaurs", and if familiar with each, one realizes they are very much "cut from the same cloth".

Scott.

[simplyconnected]

...I agree that the FE receives more support today in the after-market than the MEL, but make no mistake, both are "dinosaurs", and if familiar with each, one realizes they are very much "cut from the same cloth"...

Who is your best supplier for 430 MEL engine parts?
Our members would love to have a good source for pistons as well. If you know where I can buy thermostats and an oil pump for a 430, that would help too.

Ford's 430 MEL engine was the only block with the decks milled on an angle. No other Ford engine before or since used that design. Oddly enough, the Chevy 409 was in the exact same boat. I believe the Engine Engineers went to the same schools, here in Detroit but it was an inferior design and quickly dropped by both corporations.

Fact is, many more 460s were produced than 430s.

FE engines and MEL engines were worlds apart and NOT cut from the same anything. Y-Blocks also had a valley pan under the intake manifold before FEs were designed. - Dave

[OX1]

Let me know how that works out for you.
Of the options you named, are any converted to run on modern liquids?
When I built my Y-Block I knew a 351W engine would be far cheaper to build but I bit the bullet and did the overhaul anyway. I love the sound of a Y but it is only 300 cubes and not expected to perform miracles in a Galaxie. Looking back, I doubt I would do it again because the engine is all cast iron, the center exhaust ports are still next to each other and the lifters will always be solid. I did a ton of oil modifications, match-weighed piston/rod assemblies, balanced the crankshaft, retimed the camshaft, added a true roller timing set, and much more. In retrospect, I should have used the 351W and AOD. - Dave

Well, you said pistons were available, just custom and ungodly $$$. The rest (bearings, rings, cam, chain, gaskets, oil pump) seem to be available.

Obviously you have to be real careful on who you let machine block due to angled bores. That might be the hardest part in finding that one right guy.

Anyway, that 460 I have started life as an 83, so ready for even reg unleaded I suspect. Would probably bump compression into the mid 9's and run 93 with it, if/ever.

[OX1]

an oil pump for a 430, that would help too.

This kit has a melling oil pump, can't be too tough to get by itself, but I didn't really look that hard.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lincoln-430-SHORT-Engine-Kit-Piston-Rings-Gaskets-Bearings-Timing-Oil-Pump-61-65-/151452050592

Not sure if this is really a 430 thermostat (or the one you were thinking of), but that is what it says

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Shop/Pony-Stock-430-Ford-MEL-V8-Thermostat-Gasket-and-Housing/122-4.html

This guy claims do not replace the block thermostats, only water diverters, Comments??

http://bigfancycar.blogspot.com/2014/04/at-engine-shop.html

Post on here claims it is regularly done and no reported problems.
In my case, this car does not go out under 60 degrees ever.
Not too worried about warm up time if that is all they do.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&p=5951

After reading it again, it appears after 63, Ford didn't even use
the head thermostats.

Anyway, this is why I post questions, many times.
These threads always snowball, forcing me to do
more research and learn.

[partsetal]

I've rebuilt 3-430's over the years and never had a problem finding parts. Most difficult were rocker arm shafts, camshafts, and cam bearings. These have all become available new in the past 5 years. Still elusive is the oil pump that has provisions for the crankcase mounted vacuum pump for the wipers. Melling has a pump available without this feature as previously noted. The oil/vacuum pump unit can be rebuilt/repaired if one has the knowledge/resources. The block thermostats are out there, but hard to find. They are not necessary but can be used for a period correct restoration. Machine work on the cylinder walls requires someone with experience on these or the 409. After a boring operation, the bowl (combustion chamber) must be contoured to transition to the new cylinder walls. My biggest challenge on the rebuilds was finding a good ring expander to accommodate the angled cylinders and combustion chamber.
Carl

[simplyconnected]

Carl, where do you source 430 domed pistons?

Henry, you're beginning to find out how hard this engine is to properly overhaul. Name-brand parts MUST be available for a quality overhaul, and why not? Other engines have great support.

Unfortunately, the 430 is too rare for vendors to dedicate replacement parts shelf space. Every year, fewer are rebuilt.

The short block kit you show is for a 350 Chevy. They have a disclaimer, "Engine kit image is for illustrative purposes only." For SIX HUNDRED bucks, they should show correct parts. These are not, and If I lived in Australia I would NOT take the chance. All these parts should normally cost half and then you are at their mercy regarding brands.

Don't feel bad, 430 block thermostats cannot be found anywhere. No, the 'universal thermostat' you show will not work in a 430. Diverters are supposed to upset the coolant flow to make better contact with cylinder walls. They do not regulate engine heat. When original thermostats go bad the only choice is to do without. That's why it's widely accepted.

"Domed pistons for the 430 MEL are 'custom made' only."
Make no mistake, this doesn't mean they are available. It means, IF you can find a piston maker, he must have lead time to cast 430 domed pistons. Again, four are RH and four are LH. They must be large enough to fit a newly bored block. What's the cost? Contact the foundry.

Building a 430 is so daunting, most rebuilders 'settle' for common flat top pistons that totally ruin the original compression ratio. Egge.com was a popular supplier of wrong parts that 'work' but now they don't touch 430s. My observation is, most 'rebuilt' 430 engines get sold, then the new owners ask why 400-HP just isn't there.

I normally don't refer our members to another board but in your case, CLICK HERE. I wish my suggestions were more favorable but I am looking out for your best interest by steering you in the right direction. I still stick to my prior posts/advice. Bottom line is, it's your money and your car to do with what you please. Good luck. - Dave

[partsetal]

Dave,
One rebuild had to have one cyl sleeved, the other cyls had no taper, very little wear, so std used pistons reinstalled plus another good used selected for the sleeved cylinder. One rebuild was using the egge set, and the other was using some old stock Jahns pistons with the ledge. No real drama just some diligent searching.